door rust prevention

[tony]

i have my door cards off , on my maestro.
is it worth putting some anti rust treatment inside the door ,if yes what?

[MG MAL]

Yes.

Hot wax oil, and loads of it.

I tend to spread plenty of "cure rust" into the seems before wax oiling to kill off any rust spots not visible.

Mal.

[Peter J]

Wax oil may be best, but ordinary engine oil works for me, I should have used it earlier. When rust had perforated the door bottoms I touched up the paint, which only lasted a few weeks before it needed doing again. After having to touch up the paintwork again several times, I squirted plenty of engine oil in with my oil can through little holes I drilled in the back of the doors to make sure the oil went everywhere, and I have not had to touch up the paintwork again since. That was several years ago, so it must have worked.
But maybe the engine oil sticks to the metal better once it has rusted, I imagine wax oil sticking to clean metal better than engine oil?
Incidentally, Waxoyl is a recognised brand name, and I wonder if they are milking that to charge higher prices, as they do with branded engine oils, branded soap powders and the like, since the local accessory shop here has a different brand of wax oil at half the price?

[G51 NAV]

Wax oil may be best
It probably was once, but I have seen the future and it says "Bilt Hamber Dynax S-50" on it. Trouble is, it's hard to get hold of. http://www.bilthamber.com/dynaxs50.html

[Peter J]

It probably was once, but I have seen the future and it says "Bilt Hamber Dynax S-50" on it. Trouble is, it's hard to get hold of. http://www.bilthamber.com/dynaxs50.html

Thanks for the link :) Is this stuff really any different to other brands costing half the price though. Admittedly I don't know much about the tests they quote. But I know that soap powder manufacturers can all quote tests that show their powder the best, but the truly independent tests by the likes of the Consumers Association show almost no difference between them, and what little difference their is bears no relationship to the retail price, so as a general rule you may as well buy the cheapest - which is just as likely to be the best.

It would be interesting if they compared engine oil with this stuff. These wax films are apparently mixed with a solvent which evaporates, leaving a thicker wax which clings better to a flat sheet of metal. But what about the seam in the bottom of a door? The likelihood is that the wax will solidify before it has fully run along the seam and penetrated, particularly when you can only reach a few parts along the seam and depend on it to run along the seam and penetrate as well. Engine oil, on the other hand, never dries out, so can slowly run along and penetrate right into the seam (if it is dry to start with!) even if that takes days. If there is any movement in the metal the oil, being liquid, will move with it so the seam remains full of oil and the metal in it fully covered.

Frankly, I would be reluctant to spend £13 on a little can of this stuff to do a door, when I have used engine oil and found that it works.

[Simon]

Just slightly off topic as such, but Bilt Hamber Auto Balm wax is excellent, as is their body clay. I know, because I use them!

[secubis3]

I was having pretty the same thoughts as you. I have to do some repair work on my doors and was told waxoyl is good but engine oil does just as good a job.
My friend opened my bonnet and asked me: as the compartment is covered in oil through a leek, where is the rust in there?

I looked in his car nooks and crannies and there is a layer of oil, even his push bike has a layer of oil on it.

I might do what he has done or do one bit in engine oil and the other bit in waxoyl and compare the results.

[E_T_V]

Engine oil works, actually old engine oil is better than new but its very messy, not very environmentally friendly and needs regular application as it is easily washed away. Waxes and stickier products like waxol last far better. I've spent ages rustproofing my van, (well I'm part the way through it), and I've used a variety or products, there is no one product that suits all applications. I asked around at work what was best and spoke to a few coatings/corrosion experts, (they work in R&D for a steel company), and so by and large followed their recommendations where possible. Perhaps I should write them all down when I get a moment.

[G51 NAV]

Thanks for the link :) Is this stuff really any different to other brands costing half the price though.
I guess it depends on how reliable and independent you believe the tests are: Practical Classics rated it the best out of about half a dozen they tested for killing old rust, preventing new rust on bare metal, penetration and 'creeping'. Soaking bare steel with each product and leaving it in a salt bath, Dynax S-50 was the only product which, when scraped back of, revealed shiney bare steel underneath. There were various other tests, but that was the one which impressed me the most. Dynax S-50 consistently scored the top marks in the other tests as well, iirc.

A number of people over the years have advocated the use of engine-oil as an alternative to proprietory waxes. It may well be a good preventative but the way I see it there's nothing in the oil which will kill-off existing corrosion, which is the one thing dedicated cavity-waxes are reputed to do. Sounds like plain oil would make a good peventative, but I'm not 100% convinced personally that it's the best cure.

[TLC]

It probably was once, but I have seen the future and it says "Bilt Hamber Dynax S-50" on it. Trouble is, it's hard to get hold of. http://www.bilthamber.com/dynaxs50.htmlI have to agree and have used there products.Although have waxoyld in the past iam thinking mf using S-50 as well in the cavitys as it has a creeping habit which waxoyl dosent.
.

[a35mad]

If Waxoyl is so good, how come the base of the can of it that was on a shelf in my dry garage rusted through?

Dean

[Beaker]

Because it rusted outside in, not inside out.

[Miracle maestro]

Because it rusted outside in, not inside out.

That's right, I bet the can was still clean on the inside.

[Peter J]

I guess it depends on how reliable and independent you believe the tests are: Practical Classics rated it the best out of about half a dozen they tested for killing old rust, preventing new rust on bare metal, penetration and 'creeping'. Soaking bare steel with each product and leaving it in a salt bath, Dynax S-50 was the only product which, when scraped back of, revealed shiney bare steel underneath. There were various other tests, but that was the one which impressed me the most. Dynax S-50 consistently scored the top marks in the other tests as well, iirc.

A number of people over the years have advocated the use of engine-oil as an alternative to proprietory waxes. It may well be a good preventative but the way I see it there's nothing in the oil which will kill-off existing corrosion, which is the one thing dedicated cavity-waxes are reputed to do. Sounds like plain oil would make a good peventative, but I'm not 100% convinced personally that it's the best cure.

I haven't seen 'Practical Classics' so this is no criticism of them in particular, but I know that Magazines and Newspapers tend to get most of their income from adverts, and there is great competition amongst them to secure lucrative advertising contracts. How much can they afford to criticise the companies (advertisers) who provide most of their income? Could we really expect advertisers to spend much money advertising in a magazine that criticises their product? The truly independent tests I saw on soap powder were done by the Consumers Association who have a strict rule that they never accept any adverts.

Oil has stopped existing corrosion in my doors. Take a piece of dry rusty steel and dip it in engine oil. As long as it remains oily it won't rust any more.

[Peter J]

Thinking about it, nearly all the rust I have seen in car doors has been radiating from a bottom corner, presumably because this is where the water collects. So, whatever you decide to use, I guess the most important thing is that the seam is thoroughly dried out when you put it in, otherwise it will just float on top of the water. I think I would wait for a hot dry spell of weather, then squirt your oil or wax in through the back of the door, drilling little holes if necessary to squirt it through to ensure it reaches right into the corners.

[G51 NAV]

As long as it remains oily it won't rust any more.
I see that as being the inherrent problem: unlike dedicated cavity-waxes, it wont self-heal and I imagine will soon get dispersed, particularly on clean metal which is not already rusty, limiting its use as a preventative.

[Peter J]

I see that as being the inherrent problem: unlike dedicated cavity-waxes, it wont self-heal and I imagine will soon get dispersed, particularly on clean metal which is not already rusty, limiting its use as a preventative.

I wonder how these cavity waxes could 'self heal' any better than oil? The oil being thinner, and not dried out like the wax, would surely tend to flow back over a scratch?
I can see that oil would be more likely to wash off a flat panel than wax. But if it has soaked into the seam at the bottom of a door that should help a lot to hold it in, particularly, as you say, when rust has already begun so the rusty surface gives the oil something to cling on to. And once you have drilled holes in the back of the door you could squirt a little more oil in every year or two, or when you oil the door hinges?
My confidence in using oil in the door bottoms is based on the fact that I have used it, and it has stopped the rust from spreading. But I can see that engine oil is not the best rust preventative in every situation.

[oseerees]

Engine oil smells, is too messy, and runs will leave unsightly stains on the sills when it runs out the door drain holes.

Problem I've found with MM doors over the years is how they vary in the amount of paint coating 'inside' the door. Ones that seem to have got a sparse overspray rust, whereas those with a good coating spray inside as well as the shut areas seem to rust less.
My white Turbo (89) has doors that have little wax or preventative inside but there is no rust at all on any door - wierd - and the car has always been parked outside - the last 12 months it hasn't moved!

I have just had the door cards off and each door inside is dry with like a flaky dust, but my green EFi doors seem to rust as soon as a cloud goes overhead! Drainage is important - keep those door holes clear (loads of wax prevents water running out quickly). My old blue GSi used to have this problem - open the door the day 'after' heavy rain and the water ran out the doors then!

As for waxoils having an ingredient preventative to stop rust, pah! If it's going on nice new metal, it's just the coating stopping moisture getting to it that prevents rust starting. There is no magic ingredient! IF it's started to rust, you cannot stop rust, you can only slow it's progress, that's all. Once it has a hold there is only one solution to get rid of it, you have to cut it away.

[Peter J]

Engine oil smells, is too messy, and runs will leave unsightly stains on the sills when it runs out the door drain holes.

I used new oil from my oil can, which doesn't smell at all. (I have heard that used oil works better, but I don't know why that should be) As you say, it did leave a messy stain on the sill, but only for the first couple of days, and it washed off easily.

[Peter J]

There is no magic ingredient!

Would agree with that. I think the magic ingredient to stop rust has been 'discovered' as many times as the cure for baldness ;)

[E_T_V]

There are plenty of ways to stop rust, and plenty of ingredients that can be added to reduce the corrosion rate.

For corrosion to occur you need air to get to the steel. If air can't get there then it can't rust. Water accelerates the corrosion process hugely so if you can exclude water then again you are onto a winner. Anything that does this will reduce the corrosion rate.

[secubis3]

Right so I have got all the bits (well almost all) to do my door, only one questionn left, As I am going to pop rivot a piece of metal on, what type of metal do I need? Steel, aluminuim and what thickness?
I know it needs to be thin enough to drill and thick enough to hold...but what thickness and do they have a strength factor????

[Miracle maestro]

ETV is right it's air and moisture that accelerate rust, a big help in prevention is a garage, because this prevents condensation at night from running down the windows and dripping into the doors.

Limiting moisture inside the doors is the key.

[G51 NAV]

a big help in prevention is a garage, because this prevents condensation at night from running down the windows and dripping into the doors.
Garages are best at preserving cars which are rarely used, but unless you've got a heated, dehumidified one, I'm not too sure about how great they are with cars which are used every day. I'm beginning to think a sheltered car-port is the answer for car in daily use. I've seen cars put in garages on rainy nights and the following morning they're still sopping wet while all the cars on the streets have dried off (presuming it stopped raining).

[E_T_V]

Thats why I have a dehumidifier in my garage :D

[PhilD]

Replying to secubis3 question about what metal to use to repair a door, I have used bits cut out of other car panels, washing machine casings or whatever was to hand at the time to make repairs similar to this. You ideally need something similar to the original panel, which is probably about 22 gauge (around 0.88 mm thick). This drills fairly easily and provides a good anchor for pop rivets.
I think that aluminium would be OK as an alternative, but would preferably need to be slightly thicker and would be easier to drill. The only disadvantage in the long term may be that you would get more corrosion between the old and new parts, which would then be different metals.
The strength in either case would not be as good as a welded repair, but the door corner is not load bearing and will be stronger than if you repaired entirely with filler.

[TEAM78]

It probably was once, but I have seen the future and it says "Bilt Hamber Dynax S-50" on it. Trouble is, it's hard to get hold of. http://www.bilthamber.com/dynaxs50.html


Interesting, never heard of it before, does anyone have experiences with this stuff? ive always used the regular industrial stuff to good effect. I dont think its badly priced either, It would be nice for an independent to verify what the website claims.
thanks for the link G51, good find! :)

[E_T_V]

The test that the Bilt stuff was done under wasn't exactly a fair test, and was done to deliberatly make it look good. If you read the details you'll see the test was done under hot conditions. How many hot wet days do we get?
And we all know what happens to waxoyl when it gets hot....

[tony]

right i have made a start with the doors(and the rest of the car for that matter)
i will mostly be using one of theses
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd179/N207ENE/18062008004.jpg

with some of this
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd179/N207ENE/18062008002.jpg

[G51 NAV]

right i have made a start with the doors(and the rest of the car for that matter)
i will mostly be using one of theses
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd179/N207ENE/18062008004.jpg
Where did you buy your Dan Pyke? I've checked all the well-known national motorfactors and they're all out of stock?

[E_T_V]

Where did you buy your Dan Pyke? I've checked all the well-known national motorfactors and they're all out of stock?

Thank goodness most might say :)

I spent a happy couple of hours spraying gangrenous snot (aka waxoyl)everywhere and got about half the top side of the car done. Tony has the got rest to do now I've shown him how it all works :D

[tony]

Where did you buy your Dan Pyke? I've checked all the well-known national motorfactors and they're all out of stock?

you need to look in the bargain bin,:eek:

[tony]

Thank goodness most might say :)

I spent a happy couple of hours spraying gangrenous snot (aka waxoyl):D


thats not what you called it. *shudders*

[D87 SMW]

Do you have to pay extra for his nozzle? :)

[tony]

i had a good long hard look at his nozzle it is small and ineffective:laugh:

[Beaker]

Hope not I want to put it into production.

[E_T_V]

I'll have you know my nozzle is 18 inches long. Its flexible to get into all the right places but stiff enough to do the job perfectly!

[G51 NAV]

Hope you remembered to flush it out after doing your squirting. Last time I forgot to do that, by the time I came to use it again some of the gunk had solidified inside, it stunk to high heaven and I had to emerse it in turps to flush it clean.

[steve smith]

ooo er bet that hurt a bit tooo

[tony]

Hope you remembered to flush it out after doing your squirting. Last time I forgot to do that, by the time I came to use it again some of the gunk had solidified inside, it stunk to high heaven and I had to emerse it in turps to flush it clean.

dont worry i watched dan put his full length into white spirit,then spray it around,
i then wiped it clean for him and looked down the end ,i am not a doctor but the nozzle look clean to me. :giveup:

[steve smith]

hope u cleaned your hands after wards :-)

[maestroman23]

i've started plastering everything with vaseline...done all the brake pipes,wheel arches,door edges and anywhere else thats prone to rusting...seems to be impervious to the weather....6 months on and the brake pipes still have a thick coat of vaseline..you can get a big tub from poundland for a £1..even sold it on ebay for £3 saying it was better than waxoyl:laugh: