Welding

[H48HPE]

Following on from the thread about Rich's car and the talk of welding.

The only knowledge of weldng I really have is that there is gas welding and electric welding, so thats not very much knowledge. I would like to learn how to do it for several reasons probably the main one being car bodywork. From what I understand electric welding is best for car bodies, gas being better for thicker stell joining activities or am I wrong.

What type of set up should I be looking to aquire? and what would they typically cost? Im not looking for the best in the world, just somthing that does the job for occasional use.

I tend to be quite practal and so am assuming that ill pick this up with a bit of practice. how have other people found doing it without proper teaching?

Andy

[Jonathan]

MIG (Metal Inert Gas) is the norm for welding car panels. Have a browse on http://www.machinemart.co.uk for an idea of what the gear costs, and you'll obviously need all the safety kit too (gloves, shield etc.)

I haven't welded for years now but learned for myself when I was at school with access to gas, MIG and Arc equipment. Frequent visits to the technology workshop in my own time welding bits of scrap metal together helped, with a bit of guidance from someone who knew what they were doing and a lot of trial and error. You soon get the feel for it.

Of course, there are some excellent courses run by colleges around the country which other members have taken advantage of.

[mgdavid]

I learnt gas welding at college 20-odd years ago - but the gear is expensive so I went MiG. Many of the skills apply to both. Proper MiG uses a gas bottle to supply a 'gas bubble' in which the welding takes place to prevent instant oxidation. However the cheaper models dispense with the gas bottle and use a special cored wire which produces the gas in the nozzle as you weld - that's the type I use and it's perfectly adequate for MOT-standard repairs. The cored wire is expensive but for the amount of welding I do it's not a problem. I find welding a bit like spraying in that most of the time is spent in preparation (cutting out all the rust, shaping and fabricating repair panels), the actual welding is very quick, the rest of the time is in tidying the welds up with the angle grinder and painting or undersealing etc. There is a great sense of satisfaction the first time you get an MOT on a car you've fixed yourself. Tip - I usually take it for MOT before undersealing, so they can see what I've done, this acts as a QA on my work and also they appreciate not having to poke around through layers of gunge.

[Maria]

I've been doing a classic car restoration course at college for the last 2 and a bit years, which covers gas, MIG and spot welding, as well as metal fabrication, preparation etc etc. It's been very useful, and it's nice to get tips and advice from the experts, as well as to practice on something that's not yours, so it doesn't matter if you screw it up! We've made some simple and some complex practice pieces, so you get the basic knowledge which you can then apply to your own car.

If you don't want to go down the full year or multi-year route, most places have short welding courses, although you may find this is more tailored to heavier-duty welding like making iron gates etc!

I've had a good laugh doing this course, and hope to get one of my cars in to do as a project and then take next door into the spray booth to finish. I'd definitely recommend doing this sort of course if you can spare a bit of cash (not to expensive actually - at least not for what I'm doing) and an evening a week.

[E_T_V]

I guesss I should really put my 2p in on this topic.

Since september I've been doing a night class one night a week city and guilds "Introduction to welding" course at the sheffield college. It covers all sorts of welding and you do what you want. I've started off doing MIG welding which is probably the best suited to car repairs. Stick welding (also known as ARC welding or Manaual metal arc (MMA)) is best suited to outdoor activitys and thicker material (above 2 or 3 mm thick). On the course you can do MIG, stick, TIG aluminium and stainless, and gas welding. The quicker you pick things up the more different types you can do. I reckon an average person could complete two types in a year.

For car work I'd recommend buying a Mig welder of at least 100 amps, preferably 120+ ish to make it much more versatile. I've got a 90 amp one and I really wish it was a bit bigger. But I've just aquired a stick one for the thicker stuff so thats ok.

If you want any more info on the course as I see you are local let me know.

[Maria]

How about getting something like this training CD (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2585410680) I spotted on Ebay and getting a reasonable spec and price MIG welder and a load of metal sheet and just playing until you get the hang of it? You're better off getting a MIG welder with a gas bottle so you get the hang of adjusting the gas flow as well as current, wire speed etc.

[E_T_V]

There really is no substitute for practice when welding but I'd advise having someone else assess your work as welds that may look perfectly good to the lay person may actually be pretty rubbish.

I opted to do this city and guilds thing as it was virtually all practical, well ok in reality it is all practical and they give you a couple of sheets of paper to read if you want to. It wasn't too expensive either, well I didn't think so.. I think it was about 150 quid for a full year, and all materials etc and assessments (to BS sommat or other) are included. By the end of it you'll certainly be able to save that amount of money doing a few car repairs etc.

[H48HPE]

I think I'll enquire at doncaster college, (I know that place well cos thats where work send me), I suspect they do a similar course, they certainly have the facilities. It would be useful to get some sort of qualification at the end as well. and yes I agree, £150 would easily get spent in one visit to a garage to get welding done.

As for getting some kit, Ill see what my bank balance is like after its been hit with my insurance due on the 19th of this month.:banghead: I hate handing money over for insurance mainly cos all you get for your money is a sheet of paper. I'm looking at about £600 to £700 quid so far unless they come back with cheaper which is unlikely.:censored:

Andy

[Maria]

This is going to sound REALLY sad, but I had hours of fun this morning drooling over the bargains on the metalworking and air tool sections of Ebay. Just a shame I only have £50 to last me until the end of the month!

[Rich]

Dam!

After getting hold of an earth clamp, tong and a box full of electrodes, it turns out that the "arc welder" I got is infact a stud welder. So no use to me at all..............

:banghead:

Rich

[MGTurbo]

You'll make life very difficult for yourself if your obtaining an arc welder for repairing car bodywork. Een if you use thick plate the thin metal used on the Maestro, even load bearing areas will burn straight through. I'm afraid a MIG is the only answer such a task.

Gareth

[Alan the Vanner]

I have been using a mig that my Dad gave me. He said that it just blew holes through any bodywork repairs but I have learned to just keep the nozzle as close to the work as possible and apply the welds in short bursts. Works fine.;)

[onza100]

I worked as a trainee welder for a year or so mainly becase I wanted to learn how for my car.
I have a small mig that im using at the moment. The biggest problem is not distorting the panels just go slowly and let it cool down lots. Have some pics of my rear arches being replaced if you would like to see them let me know.

[H48HPE]

post them up, id be interested, did you do it yourself?

Andy

[Landcrab1800]

Heres mty 10 p worth.

I am doing a gas welding course at the moment and was interested to learn the following

Due to the type of steel used and the modern manufacturing processess it is recommended that cars from about 85 are NOT gas welded. This is because the panels are prestressed and heat treated to allow for strength and crumpling. The extra heat from a gas torch affects these properties in a negative way.

Luckily I only have Ego this young hence the gas welding.
Cheers

Gordon

[Rich]

The main reason why i got the arc welder, which turned out to be a stud welder was because I wanted to make a frame up to mount somthing that need to be very strong, and welding electrodes are scattered about work like no tomorrow.

It was a second thought to lear, then try it on the car, but I can now see that that may not have been such a good idea. So, can you weld large thick bits of angle and sheet steel together with a MIG welder?

Rich

[E_T_V]

Depends on your mig welder and how many amps it can deliver. Most home ones (about the 100amp level) stuggle over a couple of mm. The one I use at college is 250 amp and I have no problems welding 10mm plate, (although it takes 3 weld runs). :D

Manual stick welders are best for stuff thicker than 2 or 3mm and they are pretty much the only ones you can use outdoors in windy conditions (as the wind blows the gas shroud needed by MIG welders away). Stick welders are also MUCH cheaper than MIG welders as they are much more simple in construction.

Is this "Stud" welder actually a stick welder? As stud welders aren't common?

[Rich]

I was convinced it was a stick welder, as thats what instinct told me. But when I tried it, i couldnt get as much as a spark from it. The I reaserched it on the net, and found that the company who makes it, only make stud welders, and the symbol which i thought was for the tong, is in fact a picture of the stud gun thingy when I looked at it properly.

This I can only assume is why it wont work, when you put a tong on it, rather than the stud gun???????

Rich

[onza100]

Yes I did both my arches myself heres what it was like to start with

[onza100]

So i cut all the rust out

[onza100]

and put rust killer all over the inner arches I used krust. This was just a precaution as I hoped all the rust had gone!

[onza100]

The repair pannel wasn't a great fit so a bit of cuting and bending was needed then the pannel was tacked on

[onza100]

After more tacking!

[onza100]

The tacks are then slowly joined up with seam welds being carefull to do short runs and let the pannel cool in between. This minimises distortion. I have no pics of this stage. Then grind the welds flat and on to the painting. Heres the car after painting. The car will soon be getting a full respray so I wasn't to bothered about the finish just wanted to stop it going rusty again!

[MGTurbo]

Nice job. One question though. Did you rebuild the inner skin or left it plain?

I'm favouring the latter at the moment, the two skins create a lovely sandwich for moisture to set in and cause corrosion just like it did when it left the factory. As the wheelarch isnt a structual part of the car, the inner arch can be folded to create a smooth edge and simply seam sealed once complete, i still do a couple of tack welds though to be on the safe side.

Gareth

[onza100]

I didn't rebuild the lip bent the inner up then seem welded it to the outer. I thought that would be better than how it was and less likely to rust as you say

[Alan the Vanner]

Ah, that takes me back to last summer! The way I did mine was to use "Pocket welds" ie. to drill holes along the new panel, and weld through the holes on to the inner arch. Then I just seam-welded the edges. Hang on, I'll load up some photos.;) BTW Onza, how easy was it to weld the inside?

[onza100]

Hard! upside down and sideways fun!!

[tony]

and dont ever set your leg on fire with weld.like what i did:rolleyes:

[tony]

i hope this works

[malcsmaesty]

Ouch... thats gotta hurt!!!:censored:

[E_T_V]

Ewwww you should really post a warning before posting such pictures....



I mean those hairy legs are engouh to scare anyone ;)

[onza100]

I find its always my hair thats on fire due to the sparks!

[E_T_V]

Tony doesn't have that problem do you ;) :p :laugh:

[tony]

is that because i look like kojack or no skin on the leg :eek: :) :laugh: