It won't start!

[Rich]

I now have to admit defeat, my 1.3 van is refusing to start.:banghead:

Head gasket has been changed, valves re-ground, and head de-coked, all valve clearences have been checked and adjusted.

I have fitted a new coil, and new spark plugs, and thats about it.

It ran and started fine before I touched it, now it just cranks and cranks, and occasionally give a loud bang from the exhaust. You can also smell fuel.

I have checked, and there is spark at no.1 plug, and from the king lead. I have re-gapped the plugs, and its still no better. I thought maybe I had the HT leads around the wrong way, but I have them the same way as my old 1.3 LX, and it still won't start. As you look at the cap from above the engine, starting on the left hand top nearest the master cylinder, and working down, then the lower gearbox side, then upper gearbox side, the leads go, 1,2,4,3 is this correct?

Annoyed, Rich

[threelitre]

Off the top of my head I cannot say if the order is correct as you have given, but if in doubt there IS a definite way to see if it is correct (works also if someone has inserted the distributor drive at the wrong angle as on my 1600): Take off the valve cover and see which valves are closed. Then wire the HT lead from this cylinder to the plug in the cap where the rotor is just pointing to. Then connect the remaining HT leads so that the final firing order is 1-3-4-2 following the rotation of the distributor. (On my MG 1600 I found that 3 was firing when the crankshaft-pulley was showing TDC, so I had to shift all HT leads one position back.) Did you take off the distributor during rebuild? If so it's probably just way off the correct timing mark.

Regards,

Alexander

[MG MAL]

The firing order is 1,3,4,2,.

As 1+3 are 'paired' as are 2+4. (1firing while 3 is 'exhausting') .

Mal.

[steve smith]

u beat me to it mal i was going to say the same.

[Rich]

So, if the rotor arm turns anti clockwise, then the lead layout is correct?

I did not remove or adjust the dizzy during this, I only took the cap off, and the rotor arm out.

Could the timing have been knocked out, from turning the engine over without the head on/pushrods in? I personally would not have thought so, as the cam shaft would have still turned, and thus the pushrods would have just taken up there positions when they went back in?

[steve smith]

well i would have thought it woudl have knocked the timing out i havethat once on an old vauxhall viva engine it only a little out but it was sorted i take it u have timed the engine as per the haynes book?

[threelitre]

The timing should not have been disturbed if neither the distributor, nor the timing chain have been removed. So it should run if the wires are in the correct order and the mixture is about right.

Alexander

[G Force]

So, if the rotor arm turns anti clockwise, then the lead layout is correct??

Hi Rich it sounds like you have the correct lead layout from your description. Check for cracks in the distributor cap & the carbon brush is still there since the cap was removed.

Could the timing have been knocked out, from turning the engine over without the head on/pushrods in? I personally would not have thought so, as the cam shaft would have still turned, and thus the pushrods would have just taken up there positions when they went back in?

Like threelitre says the timing wont have altered. If you turn the engine with the head removed it is possible for the cam followers to become displaced in the block. Check that all the valves open and close properly when you rotate the engine. Which method of setting the valve clearances did you use i.e. rule of nine or valves rocking on one cylinder while setting its opposite cylinder.

[Peter J]

Did you get it started Rich?

My 1.3 van is very sensitive to any damp or dirt inside the distributor cover.

[Rich]

Yes I did in the end. Feel very silly about it all.

It turns out that copying the HT lead positions from the 1.3 Ledbury van, and my old 1.3 LX which were both the same is different to this one. It needed the leads moving round one position, which I tried after putting the old coil back on, trying that and various other things, I only found this out after removing the rocker cover to see where no.1 piston was, then removing the dizzy cap etc. After this it started on the first turn of the key.

Seems there not all the same!:o

[threelitre]

Sounds likely that someone had the distributor drive out and refitted it without checking TDC on #1 - like on my MG 1600...

Alexander

[G Force]

Sounds likely that someone had the distributor drive out and refitted it without checking TDC on #1 - Alexander

Thought that this may be useful as when the distributor drive is fitted incorrectly it can cause problems as in rich's case, and in some instances it can prevent the dynamic ignition timing as the distributor can't physicaly move far enough to achieve the correct setting.


To check or remove the drive first ensure the engine is set on TDC no. 1 cyl on the compression stroke ie. valves closed on no.1 cylinder. To access the drive gear the distributor has to be removed.

To check the drive it should be in position B on the diagram with the slot horizantal with the large "D" uppermost. (click on thumbnail to see position B)

To remove the drive, screw a 5/16 UNF bolt approx 4in long into the threaded centre hole of the drive and then withdraw the drive (I use a 3in exhaust "U"clamp straightened out and then bent at 90 degrees 2 inches at one end).

To refit the drive, using the bolt, but with the drive in position A on the diagram with the slot vertical with the large "D" facing towards the crank pulley. As the drive engages it will rotate anti clockwise due to the helix of the gears until it stops in position B.

The distributor can be then refitted and the dynamic ignition timing reset. If the drive position was altered then obviously the HT leads would need to be returned to their correct locations.

Gary:)

[steve smith]

how does it run now ?

[threelitre]

Thought that this may be useful as when the distributor drive is fitted incorrectly it can cause problems as in rich's case, and in some instances it can prevent the dynamic ignition timing as the distributor can't physicaly move far enough to achieve the correct setting.

Actually, I can't see this being a problem. If the timing is set correctly, why should the centrifugal weights or the vacuum advance not work properly?

Alexander

[G Force]

Actually, I can't see this being a problem. If the timing is set correctly, why should the centrifugal weights or the vacuum advance not work properly?

Alexander

It is not that the centrifugal weights or vacuum don't work properly,;) it is a problem because you can't actualy set the timing to the correct setting. I use the term dynamic timing as the correct timing setting is achieved dynamicly and not static.:)

You can't in some instances set the timing because the distributor movement is restricted in some manner because it is positioned wrong to start with. In the case of maestro it can be that the vacuum unit or the amplifier butts up against the oil filter or the standard plug leads won't allow enough movement of the distributor. With the metro it can be the vaccum unit butting up to the oil transfer pipe, or the leads stopping the movement.

Gary:)

[threelitre]

Agreed, but even on my 1.3 with the distributor in the correct position (and never been removed) it fouls the oil filter when adjusted to the correct timing. On the R-series MG 1600, where I had to carry out the lead-swapping the distributor itself can be turned far enough, but the cap with the HT-wires coming of to two sides instead of vertical would have posed the problem. Sadly on the R it is impossible to get the drive out of the engine in situ.

But you obviously mean the static timing as it is the one set up either with the engine static (when using old points based units) or with the engine on idle and a strobe... Both will lead to the same setting if the data is right -> a steady state and hence a static timing. Once revs or vacuum change, the timing gets dynamic...

Alexander

[G Force]

Agreed, but even on my 1.3 with the distributor in the correct position (and never been removed) it fouls the oil filter when adjusted to the correct timing.

Sorry Alexander but it most definitely does not and believe me I have checked and adjusted many hundreds of Maestro 1.3's, and of the few handfulls of ones that fouled the filter the drive was fitted incorrectly. There may have been an odd one that was untouched from the factory but I could not say with certainty. However I do recal it was common to find the drive in wrong on factory recon units, along with wrong plug gaps & valve clearances:(


But you obviously mean the static timing as it is the one set up either with the engine static (when using old points based units) or with the engine on idle and a strobe... Both will lead to the same setting if the data is right -> a steady state and hence a static timing. Once revs or vacuum change, the timing gets dynamic...

Alexander

I clearly don't mean static timing. Static is what it says on the tin, "static". The Maestro ignition timing is set dynamically ie. in the case of a HC 1.3 IIRC the data 12degrees BTDC @ 1500 rpm vacuum off . This does incorperate an amount of centrifugal advance.

It is a pointless debate really as it only serves to highlight yours and my perception of what is dynamic and what is static. You won't change my view and I respect you and your opinion.

The problem that Rich had in the original post, was in my opinion correctly identified and a remedial solution was proposed by you alexander in your first post. I just thought it was a useful addition to describe the method of correctly fitting the drive gear. It was certainly not my intention to disagree with you in any way or hijack the thread:(

Gary

[threelitre]

Sorry, didn't want to start a debate...

About my 1.3: It has to be said it uses an oil-water heat exchanger (original Unipart accessory for the 1.3), that might have reduced the clearance between the dizzy and the oil filter. at 12 degree BTDC the screw holding the cap touches the housing on one side, when "gently persuading" it past the filter housing I end up on 16 BTDC - that is what I run it on to use LPG :) (so that it still runs OK on 98RON petrol)

Your description how to reset the drive on the A-series is surely a worthwhile addition, as there will be enough people accidently fitting them's wrongly when putting the engine together.

Regards,

Alexander

[Rich]

Seems to have fueled a debate! Useful info all round, but now the leads are set up correctly, it at least runs.

It has not been running long, partly due to the lack of a choke cable, which until the dash was re-fitted this morning, cold starts and runs were a bit of a pain. There is one tappet out, you can hear it rattling, I must have mis adjusted this one, so I have that to do. Then after its got hot, re-torque of the head bolts.

Gearbox oil needs draining and filling, and as for the b*s*^*d gear linkage, grrrr, it still needs more adjustment, dam reverse stop is getting in the way of 1st and 2nd. Hateful hateful VW gearbox!

The brakes then need bleeding, and thats the mechanical stuff done then. What I really need then is just to finish off the interior bits, rear bumpers, and most importantly, a windscreen. Then we are about there.

Rich