Perkins Timing Belt Queries

[Dean]

Hi all,

Got a few little problems changing the timing belt.

Firstly, i'm having trouble removing the water pump pulley bolts, simple enough, but am I missing something?

Secondly, in the absence of a scissor type tool to hold pulleys still, is it really necessary to remove the camshaft pulley?

Can't the timing belt be just placed over the pulleys? If I just remove the tensioner will that give enough 'play' to allow me to fit the belt?

Also has anybody got any tips on doing this job, i'm following the Haynes manual. Enough said.

Dean.

[E_T_V]

The water pump pulley bolts are a little tricky. I tend to remove the inner splash shield then use a socket and extensions and brace it against the inner wing to stop the pulley turning as you try to undo them.

No need to remove the cam pulley at all just keep it locked in position. Its fiddly and I usually also remove the idler pulley to start with to make fitting the belt easier.

[G Force]

To fit the belt you should losen the cam pulley centre nut if it does not have the vernier cam pulley. If the vernier pulley is fitted then you only losen the smaller bolts. You do this to aid fitting the belt and more importantly to maintain timing accuracy. You do need to losen the idler pulley and the tensioner to fit the belt. Fit the belt from the crank pulley then around the losened idler pulley, then around the locked injector pump pulley, then up to the locked camshaft but the gear lose. This is a fixed belt run and it is important to fit the belt in this direction to avoid getting the timing wrong. Once over the cam pulley continue around the tensioner, this part of the belt run will have slack in it.

Once the belt is in place first tighten the idler pulley. Then with the crank pump pulley and camshaft locked but the camshaft pulley still lose enough to still move you can tension the belt to the correct tension.

Once you have tensioned the belt tighten up the vernier bolts or single camshaft bolt before turning the engine. With all locking pins out turn the engine by hand 2 turns clockwise and recheck the belt tension and timing. If the belt needs retensioning you should fit the flywheel & camshaft locking pins and losen the vernier bolts or single camshaft bolt whichever you have, before retensioning the belt. This ensures the timing accuracy of the engine.

Keep repeating the process until happy with the tension. Remember if the belt tension is left too tight the belt will be noisy and the belt life much reduced, if too slack the belt will be noisy and could break quickly. It is worth taking the time and trouble to get it exactly right. When you are happy with the belt tension the correct thing to do next is set the injector pump plunger stroke (pump timing) as any disturbance of the cam belt can affect pump timing. If you dont have the tools to do this then, as long as you have carefuly followed the belt timing and tensioning procedure the timing inacuracies are at least kept to a minimum.


Gary:)

[Dean]

Cheers guys,

One other thing, what size bolts would you reccomend to lock the injector pump with?

Dean.

[ben rawlings]

6/7 mm rings a bell

[E_T_V]

I can't remember the size as I bought them as a locking set for doing the job. Best £10 I've spent in a long time.

The cam and flywheel locking pins are 6.5mm I think. The ones to lock the pump are much smaller m4? perhaps. I can check tomorrow if needs be.

[Dean]

Are locking kits still available? I'm planning on using drill bits.

[E_T_V]

I believe so. I think a company called laser make them. I think I put up a picture of the locking kit a while ago. Drill bits will work fine, I just find the locking kit easier to use as it has everything you need in one box :D

[E_T_V]

With any luck the picture of my set should be linked below:
http://www.maestro.org.uk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2033&d=1112129137

Some pics of them in use:
http://www.maestro.org.uk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1989&d=1111874136
http://www.maestro.org.uk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1990&d=1111874153

[Dean]

Cheers Dan, i'll keep my eye out for a set.

Meanwhile, I've just spent half a day trying to remove the last two bolts from the water pump pulley. Even after swearing and threatening the car with a tin opener, they still wouldn't budge. In the process one bolt has decided to start to turn into a lovely spherical blob :banghead: . Looks like the angle grinder of doom is coming out and then off to purchase a new water pump.

Anybody got any spare pulley bolts going begging?

Dean, wishing he'd never started this bl**dy job :banghead:

[E_T_V]

Make sure you usea 6 sidedsocket rather than a 12 sided one as these are much much less prone to rounding off nuts.

New pumps are expensive so I'd avoid that if at all possible.

[Dean]

I won't have much choice if i've still got the pulley thread stuck in it!

How can such a simple job turn out to be so awkward. It wouldn't be so bad if there was any way of locking the pulley so you could remove the bolts.

[Dean]

Just had a brainwave :idea:

If I refit the drivebelts, will that hold the pulley in place enough so I can undo the bolts on the pulley?

[G Force]

Just had a brainwave :idea:

If I refit the drivebelts, will that hold the pulley in place enough so I can undo the bolts on the pulley?

It does make it easier that way Dean, best of luck

Gary:)

[Dean]

Cheers Gary,

Can't you tell I've never done anything like this before!

[BIGLAD]

Cheers Dan, i'll keep my eye out for a set.

Meanwhile, I've just spent half a day trying to remove the last two bolts from the water pump pulley. Even after swearing and threatening the car with a tin opener, they still wouldn't budge. In the process one bolt has decided to start to turn into a lovely spherical blob :banghead: . Looks like the angle grinder of doom is coming out and then off to purchase a new water pump.

Anybody got any spare pulley bolts going begging?

Dean, wishing he'd never started this bl**dy job :banghead:

Remove the roadwheel, then the splashguard , place a block of wood under the sump and take the weight of the engine on a (trolley) jack. Undo the O/S engine mount and remove it (you will have to at some point to get the old cam belt off/new on anyway).
Drop the jack down slowly so the engine lowers on the O/S. This should make the waterpump/pulley/bolts mor accessible.
GENTLY tap a 6 sided socket on to the bolts. (hold the pump/pulley still with the fan belt - as you said). If this doesnt hold still you can get a pair of mole-grips onto the nose of the pump/pulley to hold still.
The bolts should then come undone.
When you put them back, stick some copper grease on the threads.
If you do end up cutting/grinding the heads off, once you get the pulley off- drill and re-tap the threads (M6 IIRC).
The price of a new water pump will make your eyes water!!! :eek:

[BIGLAD]

Are locking kits still available? I'm planning on using drill bits.


Ive got the Rover/Churchill timing pins and a Draper "set".
This also has the locking pins in but loads more as it does Montego/Maestro-Prima, Rover 218 (citroen/peugeot) XUD7/9 and the Metro (citroen/peugeot) TUD.
The Draper one wasn't a lot of dosh somwhere between £10-12 IIRC.
As Dan says they earn their money time & time again.



Either This:

http://www.toolsinstock.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=21870

Or maybe this (but no picture, so cant be 100%)
http://www.toolsinstock.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=29859

[ben rawlings]

if your having trouble holding the pulley in place, as said before you can used the fan/alternator belt to hold it as you undo the nuts - to add to this, you may have alredy thought of this but they way i do it is i use the belt as mentioned, but to make this even more effective you can use a spanner of screw driver etc to put in the bent and wind it round to tighten the belt up, then wedge it in place - this obviously only applies if you are intending to replace the belt as this will stretch and weaken it

[Dean]

Just to keep you updated...

I've got 3 out of the 4 bolts out. Me and my Dad tried in vain to get the 4th one out but to no avail.

What do you recon about applying some heat to it? Failing that it'll be the angle grinder and just make do with 3 bolts holding on the pulley. I've only got 3 bolts holding on my rear o/s wheel and that hasn't come off in all the time I've owner the car!

One other thing, where abouts is the locking hole on the gearbox adaptor plate? the Haynes manual picture isn't much help.

Cheers

Dean.

[BIGLAD]

Just to keep you updated...

I've got 3 out of the 4 bolts out. Me and my Dad tried in vain to get the 4th one out but to no avail.

What do you recon about applying some heat to it? Failing that it'll be the angle grinder and just make do with 3 bolts holding on the pulley. I've only got 3 bolts holding on my rear o/s wheel and that hasn't come off in all the time I've owner the car!

One other thing, where abouts is the locking hole on the gearbox adaptor plate? the Haynes manual picture isn't much help.

Cheers

Dean.

The hole is on the "front" of the adapter plate just in front and slightly down from the oil filler neck/breather that bolts to the block. The hole actually has a small raised circle around it, cast in the alloy of the adapter. If you clean it off and rub your fonger across it/down it, you should feel it.

[Rich]

There are 8 holes available to bolt the pully onto the water pump. Cut the head of that bolt off, and forget about it, use the other set of 4 holes in the pully to refit the pully later on. Use 6mm (M6x20 will do fine) new bolts and washers to replace. The problem is the original bolts have the intergrated washers, they are quite soft anyway, but as they have the intergrated washers, the head of the bolt is 8mm rather than 10mm and hence, will round off far easier.

Wrap the fan belt round the pully, and clamp/pinch it tight with a pair of mole grips. The loop of belt left will reach and hook round the rear waterpump outlet, and hold the pully tight until the bolt is undone.

Loosen the 4 bolts on the camshaft hub BEFORE removing the belt and without the timing pins in, then nip them back up, so that you can losen them off easilly without the belt on, and not snap the timing pin. When refitting, nip them up, but tighten them properly after the new belt is on and timed.

Fuel pump:

You need 6mm bolts (M6x50 is a good guess as they need to be quite long), as belt and braces, if you loosen the bolt on the front of the injector pump, remove the triangular spacer, then tighten this bolt (don't over tighten) this will also lock the fuel pump. Don't foget to replace the spacer afterwards, or you will do some serious damage.

Use copper grease on all the bolts on reassembly, it will make it much easier next time you have to do it.

HTH Rich

[Dean]

I found a locking kit yeaterday in my local factors. It's a Draper one which does all Rover group engines, petrol and diesel.

Rich, the M6 x 20 bolts for the water pump, they're twice as long as the original ones. Will the pump take bolts this ling or should I use the nuts, that came with them, as spacers?

Dean, waiting for it to stop raining!

[Rich]

Dean,

I am sure the 20's are not to long, yes there longer than the originals, but last time that length was the smallest I had, and they did not foul the pump. They were fitted in the outer set of holes.

Just check once you have put them in, that the pully turns freely without any fouling, and you should be fine.

Rich

[Dean]

UPDATE:

Finally removed the water pump pulley :woohoo: I even removed the remaing thread that was on the pump :thumbup:

Also removed an awkward jubilee clip that was holding a hose on.

Then a stumbling block, the crankshaft pulley. I know in the manual it says not to use timing pins, but has anybody ever used this method? I don't posess the scissor thingy that is shown in the manual.

Dean.

[E_T_V]

I've used the timing pin in the crank before several times. Not advised of course but it worked for me. I usually put the car in gear and get an assistant to stomp on the brakes first though before resorting to using the pin to help.

[Dean]

I usually put the car in gear and get an assistant to stomp on the brakes first though before resorting to using the pin to help.

Thanks for the suggestion Dan, but it didn't work, looks like i'll be using the timing pin method.

[Dean]

Right, I've got the timing pins in and the injector pump locked. I've tried to loosen the crankshaft pulley bolt but it's not having it. All i'm doing is lifting the engine!! I don't want to give it a almighty tug and hear a ping sound of timing pins shearing off.

Is the Rover tool for locking the crank still available? Desperate, I know!

[E_T_V]

I know this isn't the right time to tell you but loosening the crank pulley bolt is a lot easier with the engine mount still connected.

It requires a LOT of force to undo it. I've not broke a timing pin yet but as I say, you are the one who has to take the decision ;)

A garage with an impact gun will see the bottom pulley nut loosened in seconds which is really disheartening when you've been heaving with all your might for a couple of hours!

You can make a locking tool I think from some galvanised steel strapping or other bent steel used to lock through the "spokes" in the pulley. I think the haynes manual tells you how to do it.

[G Force]

Hi Dean two sugestions for losening the crank pulley bolt.

You need to select 5th gear if you use the assistant with the foot on brake method.

Or remove the starter motor and wedge a large flat blade screwdriver or similar between the ring gear teeth and the starter motor apature of the geabox casing.

Gary:)

[Rich]

There is only one safe way I have found to loosen this bolt, and I always undo it as the very first thing.

Remove wheel arch acess panel. With car on ground, in 5th gear, jam the brake pedal down, or get someone else to keep it pressed down, otherwise you can wind the car off the drive, down the road and the bolt will stick be lauging at you. Turn steering to full right lock, and use a socket on the bolt, long extension bar(s) to clear the wheel arch, then get a breaker bar on it. Use a jolt more than a turn to crack it loose.

I personally couldn't recommend the timing pin to hold the engine to remove this one, they can be very hard to undo!

Rich

[Dean]

Cheers Rich,

I've borrowed a breaker bar and will try this when i'm next on my 6-day weekend.

I was talking to a mechanic yesterday told me an alleged method. Put the breaker bar on and with a jack hold it under the front vallance. Then quickly turn the engine over :eek:

Anybody tried this?

Dean.

[marinaman]

Hi,

Yesterday I removed the bold by using an impact air wrench on 10 Bar. 8 Bar was not enough. I used the two timing pins (drill bits) for securing the crank and the cam shaft. They did not shear off!

May I post my question here?
I have this new timing belt. It has little arrows pointing to one side of the belt to indicate the right direction of movement. I think the little arrows have to point to the engine side. But I am not sure. Any body ever come across this type of indication on a timing belt?

Thanks.

Walter

[B18 GPC]

if the belts got writing on eg ;

GATES GATES GATES GATES

when fitted , you should be able to read it from the OSF wing , the right way up..

I beleive , with arrows they point Inwards...But i cant 100% verify that. is there any other writing on the belt


PS , Welcome to the forums

[marinaman]

Thanks for your answer!

The belt is on now and I can feel a slight improvement when accelerating. So that's good news!
There is however a slight wow to be heard. Not when the engine is idle but when reving up. So I decreased the belt tension a bit. The sound is still there but a bit less. I think. I hope ;-)
Don't want to slacken it even more.

So far so good!


I am going through the Forum now for answers on heater problems, pressure in heater hoses, consuption of engine oil and the pcv valve.

[Dean]

I finally mangaged to get the crankshaft pulley bolt out :woohoo:

I used the wedging the breaker bar under the car whilst starting the engine method. Works a treat ;)

Dean.

[E_T_V]

I am going through the Forum now for answers on heater problems, pressure in heater hoses, consuption of engine oil and the pcv valve.

Uhh oh.

The oil consumption and the PCV valve are probably linked. A duff PCV valve leads to excessive oil consumption.
The lack of heater and pressure in the coolant hoses are the first signs of headgasket failure.