Petrol for leaded 1600 Series?

[D813YBB]

Just following on from my wheel bearing post, what kind of fuel would you recomend for my 1600 S series that can't be converted to unleaded. On last year's holiday I used Tesco's LRP together with a lead additive (Castrol Valvemaster???). Has LRP been phased out?

TIA
Martin

[MaestroMatt]

I would recommend Shell Optimax (unleaded) together with a lead additive. Optimax has a higher octane rating than normal unleaded so is similar to leaded petrol and will make your car run much smoother. You can properly convert your S series to unleaded though - you can either buy a complete new head from Rover (at a cost!) or have your valve seats replaced. It will probably run smoothly for years on Optimax with lead additive though!

[e692wtt]

I use Shell Optimax plus 'millers Superblend 2000' no trouble at all. I've used the Millers for 3 years and then 'Redline Lead Substitute' for a couple of years before that with premium unleaded, but only Shell Optimax for the last year.

As long as the 'additive' has the 'stamp' as approved by the Federation of British Motor Vehicle Clubs' (FBHVC) it will be ok. These were strict independent tests, and it's a damning indictment of the Labour Government that they didn't introduce a British Standard for LRP!!!

The other other Rich.

[matthewsemple]

Why don't people use LRP? It's only marginally more expensive than UL and you don't have to mess about with expensive additives.

I use LRP in my MG Maestro 1600 and MG Maestro Turbo and it is much more economical than UL. You'll get loads more miles per gallon. I asked my local garage about LRP being phased out and he said there were no plans to do so.

In fact I don't know of a petrol station that doesn't sell it. So why people are reluctant to buy it is a complete mystery to me.

There's also a myth that it isn't approved to British Standard and so will damage your engine. This is complete nonsense as it is approved by the EU as all new fuels will be. It will not damage your engine any more than Unleaded with an additive - because that is exactly what it is! You are more likely to damage the engine by getting the wrong ratio when you are mixing the additives yourself.

So my advice is to use LRP and then petrol companies won't phase it out. Other MG Maestro Turbo owners I have spoken to find it the best fuel for their cars and they all report better fuel consumption.

http://www.angelfire.com/home/mat99v/TwoMGs.JPG
My MG Maestros with R-Series and O-Series engines run for many thousands of miles on LRP

[E_T_V]

Or of course if you are lucky enought to live next to a station with leaded petrol you can use that although it is pricy. I believe Thrust supplies it throughout the UK to various stations in the UK my old local esso had it and during the fuel crisis it was all that was left!. LRP isn't as good as the old leaded stuff. Believe me it burnt the valves out in our s series and sent it to the big scrap yard in the sky, so I'd rather use LRP plus an additive if I had to. Luckily I've got an unleaded 1.3, and a spare unleaded hear to boot. :)

[MaestroMatt]

I have found that Optimax with an additive is better than LRP for a balance of performance and economy - it is probably a slightly more expensive way of doing it, but it won't coke up my engine!

[matthewsemple]

Maybe its an S-Series thing - I have never owned an S-Series although the R-Series is very similar. I am going to carry on using LRP as long as they sell it.

The Maestro Turbo engine spins at just 2700 rpm in 5th at 70mph so I am not too worried about damaging it on the motorway at high speeds as it is barely ticking over at the legal limit.

At 4000rpm the car will be doing over 100mph (allegedly) and over 130mph at 5500rpm (according to official statistics)

By the way has anyone used those Broquet catalyst things? Do they prevent engine damage adequately?

[e692wtt]

Mebbe it *is* an S-series thing. See the MG Owners' Club website for discussion on this - it seems that the O-series engines are Unleaded-compatible...

I would say that British Standards are the best in the world. I am unaware of a similar 'EU Standard' referring to Lead Replacement Petrol but will be more-than-happy to be proved wrong. What if the bloke loading the fuel into his tanker at the Refinery gets the dosage of Additive wrong? Don't trust that - I don't trust many people but rarely get hurt or my fingers burnt... or my valve seats burnt out...

I pay £5 for enough Millers Superblend2000 to treat approx 160 litres of Unleaded, which works out at approx 3p per litre of Unleaded - cheaper than LRP, and I can be sure the dosage is correct. These figures may be wrong, I'm not going outside in my dressing gown because the neighbours will start talking... Ball park figures, on an S-series.

When Leaded fuel has been used in the past, there can be a residue of Lead on the Exhaust Valve seats, along with a degree of 'work hardining' of the same valve seats. This will last for an unspecified time before wear begins. You've got away with it so far on your non-'O'-series engines but I wouldn't bank on it permanently...

Practical Classics carried out a test on one of the 'fuel catalysts' like Broquet, and found extremely bad Exhaust Valve wear after 4000 miles. Other stories from Australia indicate similar problems. I wouldn't bother, but you won't need this on an 'O'-series anyway.

The other other Rich, Monty 1.6L using Shell Optimax plus Millers Superblend2000 for 3 years no problems.

[Wonko_The_Sane]

Roger Parker's MG'M' Article on unleaded for A/B/O/R/S series egines (http://www.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgoc&p=emg/mgoc-unl.htm)

Try that. Most enlightening Also, later S series lumps were factory unleaded, mine being a case in point. Factory UL stickers, UL warning, Remapped ATP ECU for unleaded fuel (fitted whilst still under Rover Cowley Ownership).

The only reason I suspect mine has a death rattle is the dead auto choke that was "full fuelling" the engine constantly for years, due to shop runs of less than a few miles daily, and a year of hard thrashing with me before I junked it.

Personally, mine loves any fuel. ULS Unleaded doesn't half pink when I use the throttle sometimes though. Thank god for the knock sensor!

[e692wtt]

Yep, that's the article I'm referring to. I'm just not competent enough at handling data and my computer at home (this is work... signed out, honest!) was timing out before it would load these articles (stored on the desktop) to get me an http address...

500ml of the Millers treats 150l of unleaded petrol (recommended doseage), just had a look. That's 3.33pence per litre of unleaded, so I would say the costs of ulp + Millers vs LRP are more-or-less the same. Some additives are cheaper, some more expensive - just be sure they are FBHVC-approved (independent tests - Millers performed 8 times better than the minimum allowable standard, in an extremely hard test). The FBHVC 'stamp' is clearly visible on 'approved' additives.

The other other Rich.:)

[MGTurbo]

LRP is not a proven fuel in either octane or valve seat erosion. Far better to save your money and use unleaded if you have an O series, they ARE unleaded compatabile, i've used unleaded in my turbo for over 40k with no problems. S series, unless you have inserts expect to burn your valves/seats out eventually depending on usage. If you only cover 3k a year then it could last 3 years before any damage is done if you drive gently . R series the same, no R series was ever fitted with inserts so the same applies, as a precaution use an additive.

Cheers, Gareth Kidman

[Wonko_The_Sane]

Post 1990/91 S lumps must have them then....they DO have unleaded ECUs and warnings on the car..:) I'd look up the ECU numbers if I could find where the missus has hidden my workshop manual..:laugh:

I'll edit this post again when i locate it.

Ok..got it. Righty ho.

Engine Tuning Data-1.6 with auto mixture control, 87-89 (leaded)
Engine type:16HC37,16HC55,16HC38,16HC62,16HE04,16HE06,16H EO7,16HE08
C/R:9.6:1
Ignition Timing@1400rpm: vac disconnected:16 to 18 degrees BTDC
Ignition ECU: Lucas type AB17-84185 or 84740
Carb:HIF44E electronic, spec no:FZX1463-manual, FZX1425-Auto.
Fuel/Octane: 97RON (Leaded)

Engine Tuning Data-1.6 with manual mixture control, 87-on (leaded)
Engine type:16HC37,16HC60,16HC56,16HD73,16HE05
C/R:9.6:1
Ignition Timing@1400rpm: vac disconnected:16 to 18 degrees BTDC
Ignition ECU: Lucas type AB17-84185
Carb:HIF44, spec no:FZX1475.
Fuel/Octane: 97RON (Leaded)/ 91RON (Leaded)

Engine Tuning Data-1.6 with auto mixture control, 88 on(UNleaded)
Engine type:16HE54,16HE55,16HE56,16HE57
C/R:9.2:1
Ignition Timing@1100rpm: vac disconnected:11 degrees BTDC
Ignition ECU: Lucas type AB17-80100
Carb:HIF44E electronic, spec no:FZX1488-manual, FZX1489-Auto.
Fuel/Octane: 95RON (Unleaded) OR 97RON (Leaded)

Seems a few different engine specs, carb specs, and ECU's are used on the S series...but according to Rover, post 88 1.6 'S' lumps WILL run either, quite happily.

Any use?

[matthewsemple]

The EU approval number that I refer to is written on the handle of every LRP pump in the country in the same place as the British Standard pump on unleaded.

LRP won't be mixed in an random adhoc way by the bloke filling up his tanker any more than any other modern fuel with all of their additives would be. Unleaded and Diesel are also full of additives and these fuels will be prepared at refineries in huge volumes to ensure consistency.

We have yet to see this but I would hazard a guess that any other new fuels launched will have an EU standard rather than a British Standard as the testing will be done once rather than in every EU country.

LRP costs about 76p a litre at the moment in my local Sainsbury's and as it is so noticably more economical than using unleaded in my Turbo I am saving my money already because putting UL in the Turbo is much more costly. So if the Turbo is UL compatible (although no Maestro Turbo ever was UL approved by Rover) then the LRP will not do any harm and is more economical so it's got to be best in my book. I know of other Maestro and Montego Turbo owners who have found LRP much more economical and the engine seems to run more smoothly on it.

In terms of valve seat damage in my R-Series MG1600, I'll have to look into this. Still not convinced that the anti-wear additive in LRP is going to much different than the anti-wear additive that you can buy to put in yourself.

So far the car has done approximately 15,000 miles on LRP since its introduction and I use it as my daily commuter and on long trips on the motorway. I fill up the car several times a week - sometimes putting £35 worth in , sometimes £20, sometimes £10. My girlfriend uses the car and fills it up when she uses it and we just don't have the time to be mucking about with additives. The car has to be convient and easy to use as it is an everyday runabout. That's the only way we can run two MG Maestros. If my girlfriend had to calculate and measure out an additive every time she wanted to put a tenners worth of petrol in the tank I don't think she'd be too happy!

[Mat_C]

The problem is not with the aditive they put in LRP, its usually phosporus based IIRC, its the amount they put in i.e. not much (I used to know the figures but forgot!).

I personally used valvemaster plus (octane boost) - works out cheaper than LRP for me.

[e692wtt]

If memory serves, the Phosphorous additive in LRP is dosed at 10 to 12ppm (parts per million, usually by weight) but is only 100% effective at 18ppm. Could be talking complete rubbish though (I do so on a regular basis but no-one ever pulls me up on it...).

Esso produced a leaflet for their LRP on introduction in 1999 that said, effectively that 'if you want to drive your leaded-only car at high speed for any length of time with the engine over 3000rpm, or intend towing at speed for any distance, we recommend that you have your engine's cylinder head converted with unleaded-compatible valve seats'. Which kind of repeats what is said about using unleaded petrol in a leaded-only car anyway. I've got a copy of this leaflet in the house, can find it if anyone wants me to.

As mentioned in other posts, O-series engines are ALL unleaded-compatible, but I believe the date for 'unleaded compatible' in the 1.3s and 1.6s was the 1989 MODEL YEAR (ie Montego MkII but no external signs on the Maestro? Your owner's handbook will have a sticker that says the model year - mine says 88MY and so an unleaded-compatible car will say 89MY or later [90MY etc]?).

I am unaware of an EU standard relating to Petrol, but have heard of 'E-approval' on other car components, eg headlights, seatbelts. Shouldn't the fuel station pumps be marked with this EU mark, as per BS7070 for unleaded petrol, as well? I'm unaware of any such EU marking, but will be happy to be proved wrong.

The other other Rich.

[F690OTF(RIP)]

It sounds to me as though, as far as the 1.3 goes (not the original subject of discussion, I know), the Special saw the base models through to the end of leaded, and the Clubman used unleaded when it took over.

What's the relationship between unleaded certification and the presence or otherwise of a catalytic converter? Did they 'happen' at the same time? Admittedly you still have to get down on the ground to have a look (although you can smell a catalytic converter as well), but it's getting towards an external sign... Under the bonnet, is the little tube with a screw in the end at the very front of the engine for emissions tests related to the presence of the catalytic converter? Depending upon the answer to the above question, would this therefore also be a sign of unleaded certification?

Peter

[Wonko_The_Sane]

Unleaded and catalysers go together..:) Leaded/LRP and a catalyst would just kill the cat.

Cats were only fitted to UL cars..:)

[F690OTF(RIP)]

Oh yes, sorry, I realise that. I meant were there some cars produced that were designed to run on unleaded but didn't have catalytic converters? Since you can run a car designed for leaded on unleaded if you want, and it's obviously not going to have a cat., it's clearly not absolutely necessary to allow a vehicle to run on unleaded.

[topgear]

Leave the poor cat alone, he probably wants some milk! :D

[Eric]

I've used Broquet Fuel catalyst (pellets that go in the fuel tank) in my 1987 1.6 maestro for the past 6 years and it runs very nicely on unleaded. No problems at all. There are other similar products on the market but this one I know works perfectly. Call Broquet International on 01788 540068 54, Regent Street, Rugby, Warwickshire.

[matthewsemple]

Originally posted by e692wtt
I am unaware of an EU standard relating to Petrol, but have heard of 'E-approval' on other car components, eg headlights, seatbelts. Shouldn't the fuel station pumps be marked with this EU mark, as per BS7070 for unleaded petrol, as well? I'm unaware of any such EU marking, but will be happy to be proved wrong.

The other other Rich.

I have never seen an LRP pump that doesn't have the EU rating on it. The label is in exactly the same place as the BS rating label is on unleaded.