head gasket?

[money]

I have a 2.0 i diesel clubman, 80 000 miles, just bought, noticed the temp guage going up and down sometimes. Went to inspect oil, seemed fine on dipstick, however when opened the filler cap, there was gunky stuff all down the filler pipe and moisture on the filler cap. The car runs absolutely fine though, but when running, looks like steam is pumping out of the filler pipe when I take off the filler cap . . . I also seem to be filling the water more often than usual, although can't be sure, as only had the car a few weeks . . .

Found a very similar post on the archive site, but the response suggested this is normal, and that it is normal for gunk and condensation to be round this area, the reason was that this area gets blasted with cold air all the time . . I find this hard to believe . . . .can anyone confirm this as normal for the 2.0i diesel? Do head gaskets tend to go around this mileage???

Any genuine help would be hugely appreciated!!

[E_T_V]

I've never had a diesel so can't say for sure but:

1. You should never need to top up the radiator water, so if it is disappearing it must be going somewhere.

2. If you start then engine from cold and run it for a minute or so and feel the rubber hoses on the radiator. - If they are very hard then the headgasket has most likely gone. (The engine will be pressurising the water system).

3. Check the dipstick after the engine has been running. (Overnight any water may settle out in the sump). If you've got mayonaise for oil then definatly time to do the gasket.

4. Steam from exhaust. A little is normal on a cold car. If the exhaust is hot (e.g., after is has been on the motorway) and steam comes out then again probably the headgasket. If you have a constant smoke screen behind you like our landrover did, then again headgasket problems are likely.

If it has most or all of these symptoms I'd suspect the headgasket. If it is just loosing water or overheating it may be another problem, such a leaky radiator, sticking thermostat, duff waterpump etc. The most reliable indicators of a blown headgasket are oil mayonaise in the sump, (the petrol 1.6's were prone to mayo in the breather system only) and having a highly pressurised cooling system even then the water is cold.

Someone else will be along shortly who has more experience of the perkins lump.

Dan

[John S]

If you need to top up the water in the header tank on every journey it is definitely the head gasket going. If you can see streams of smoke/steam pouring out the back gassing everyone behind the head gasket is about to go. I would watch the temperature guage, as if it goes up too far into the red you may damage the engine - switch off immediately, let it cool down for 30 mins then continue your journey (if you're stranded miles away from home). You will probably hear the water boiling in the system when the needle is in the red. We had the head gasket replaced at 70,000 miles, however this was on the Rover warranty 2 1/2 years ago. Headgaskets need replacing a couple of times in the engine's total life but that is if you intend bringing the mileage up to 300,000 miles which they are well capable of.
Nearly forgot -I recommend you to take a huge 4 pint jug or large container of water and keep it in the boot just to be on the safe side in case you do have to pull up due to overheating/loss of water.

[E_T_V]

keep water in the boot, but NEVER add cold water to a boiling hot engine, you may damage the engine and might even crack the engine block.

[MaestroMatt]

There is a head gasket set for a diesel on e-bay at the moment - could be what you are in need of. May not be, can't remember the exact details.

[money]

You guys have been a great help . . .thanks for all your input!!! I thought I was all alone in the world of owning a maestro . . . .thank God I'm not!!!

Gonna try and do the head gasket this weekend . . .never done anything like it before . . .so possibly taking it to the scrap yard on Monday, if things don't go to plan . . . I have no choice though . . .Rover quoted me 669.00 + vat for the job!!!! The car only cost me 400 . . .

Thanks again all. . . .wish me luck!!!

[Maria]

Good luck! :)

Whereabouts are you? If it does go wrong, maybe someone could pop by and help out?

[Beaker]

£669 plus vat, they must be having a laugh.

I think a head gasket set for our 1.3 from the Motor Factors cost £12. So they are trying to charge you about £649 quid for labour.


Dont scrap the car, perservere with doing the head gasket.

[E_T_V]

There are plenty of people on here willing to lend help and advice. The headgasket shouldn't be a difficult job just so long as you have the patience and determination to do it. ( I got it down to about a long evening, but I had a bit of practice to get there) If there are any problems we'll all do our best to help and there is a fair spread of us around the UK so maybe someone is local.

[wemyss]

On my wifes Maestro TD I have noticed over the past few months that there is still pressure in the water system when I remove the radiator cap after standing overnight or even days.
The hoses are still hard also until the cap is removed.
Reading previous comments this indicates a head gasket problem.
However the car is starting and running perfectly. Uses no water or oil and have replaced the cap which made no difference.
I understand that the system can be pressurised by a faulty HG but why does it retain this pressure.
Any ideas or comments welcome.

nick

[E_T_V]

Hi there.

Retaining pressure is not necessarily indicative of head gasket failure. However pressurised hoses before the car reaches operating temperature definatly is. To test if this is the case drive the car from cold releasing all pressure in the system first for a mile or so. This will allow the engine to warm but not get hot. Then try squeezing the big rubber hoses under the bonnet. If they are pressurised and hard then the chances are the headgasket is leaking combustion gases into the coolant.

If the pressure is being retained overnight and there is no loss of water then the leak is only minor. I ran mine like this for 3 or 4 months until it got worse and eventually the heater became airlocked. The reason that pressure is retained even after the enine has cooled is that the head gasket leak is only very minor, i.e. it is only allowing a small amount of combustion gases to enter the coolant but not letting any coolant back into the cylinders, the extra combustion gases present in the cooling system cause the extra pressure. As my headgasket got worse I started to lose coolant if I left it overnight however by depressurising the coolant system, (i.e. leaving the cap loose), I stopped the water being forced back into the cylinders under the pressure left in the collant system and so stopped my water leak.
Also you may notice that small water leaks start appearing at all the hose joints and the heater matrix due to the water being pressurised to above its normal level as the problem slowly gets worse.

On the TD the chances are the headgasket has failed by corrosion (hopefully of the gasket), around number 4 piston. If the car hasn't been overheated and the head is in good condition then all that is required is a clean up and a new gasket. When the head gasket goes on the diesel it is invariably at this point and due to corrosion rather than any other reason. The symptoms are as you describe. First you notice pressurised hoses when the engine is warm and not hot. Then you start to notice coolant loss if the cap is left on overnight and finally the heater backs up. In REALLY bad cases you may see exhaust gases coming from the expansion tank when you remove the cap.

Take a look here for the worst headgasket failure I've EVER seen.
http://maestro.org.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=3078&highlight=antifreeze

As your symptoms seem similar to mine the only problem you may have doing the job are removing the glow plugs as they have a habit of seizing in. I didn't need it repairing or skimming even though I'd been driving with it like that for 3-4 months. Headgasket failure on the diesel is thankfully usually a very gradual and uneventful process!

[wemyss]

Thanks for that ETV it was very informative and helpful. I will use your suggestion of running it from cold and see how long it takes before pressurisation takes place.
With the experience you had with your own it does seem that its almost identical in symptoms although as said earlier there is not the slightest change in the running of the engine. Still instant starting in cold without waiting for the glow plugs, even several degrees down and it fires almost before the key is turned.
With 83K on the clock its actually running better than when new in terms of performance and honestly believe its only just run in.
Thanks once again for your information and help.
nick

[E_T_V]

You are right it is only just run in. When the head is taken off I predict you'll still see honing marks in the cylinders. Sadly it is usually corrosion rather than anything that finishes the head gasket off so remember to change your antifreeze regularly once the job is done and you'll be ok for at least another 100,000 miles.

I recently saw the insides of my old non turbo diesel engine with over 200k on the clock. I have to say that there was no excessive wear lip and if the oil pump hadn't packed up I'm sure it would still be running today.

[wemyss]

Just to bring up to date my post on the cooling system being pressurised.
I had fitted a new radiator cap and replaced the old one again.
Touch wood and I shouldnt be saying this but since refitting the old one there has been no pressurisation of the hoses.
Very strange (says Alice) and I can't offer an explanation really. The new one was the correct type and pressure.
Interested me enough to do a google search on radiator caps and although obviously they lift off at the stated pressure they have a device to allow air back into the system to avoid a vacuum. Obvious I suppose but it had never crossed my mind before.
Examining the caps I can see no such device which I would envisage to be something like a small loose pin which would be held tight by pressure but fall away when the pressure decreases.
Anyway for the moment all is fine although I've developed a neurotic habit of keep lifting the bonnet to squeeze the hoses after each journey and God knows what the neighbours must think.
Keeping my fingers crossed.
Thanks for the advice
wemyss

[C191JOE]

Go for the Head gasket job but do it yourself and save a lot of money!

A Haynes manual is a great help. I had a 1.6 petrol cylinder head converted for unleaded use and decided to replace it myself. It was simply a matter of being very precise, very methodical and not doing anything that I didn't understand until I was absolutely sure that I was doing it properly. In truth it is not rocket science; just proceed from step a to step b etc., Good luck with it! david

[E_T_V]

Yes I hope that the faulty radiator cap was all that the problem was! If not then don't worry a head gasket change isn't that difficult to do. The haynes manual leads you through it fairly well. And if you do embark on it then I can probably give you a few tips and shortcuts that'll help too.

[wemyss]

Going back to April 2006 when I reported that changing the rad cap stopped the pressurising of the hoses.....no explanation.
However it is back again and even trying one or two caps makes no difference.
The good advice on this forum is that its the familiar TD head gasket problem.
As before the car is running perfectly well with no water loss, no oil in the water or mayo in the oil. Possibly not getting such good mpg as before but that could perhaps be the weather.
The car is in excellent condition and its only in the last year that I have changed the radiator, had a new cambelt fitted and new shock absorbers so its pretty well up to scratch.
I have reached the age that I now use a garage to do any major work so if its the head gasket it will be local indie who will be doing it. Have done head gaskets myself on petrol engines but dont fancy this job.
Before I put it in there is there any other possible reason why the hoses should be pressurised very hard even after a very short journey. It will even stay like this overnight.
Just hoping that someone will come along and say mine turned out to be something simple.
wemyss

[E_T_V]

No,I'm afraid it sound like head gasket. If you open the expansion tank cap and do it back up again then run the engine from cold for a couple of minutes does the expansion tank get pressure in it? If so then sorry but it'll be the head gasket. Lack of antifreeze rusts them through. They don't usually mix oil and water, the first sign is usually mysterious water leaks all over the place and your heater packs up.

[wemyss]

Thanks Dan and I was really expecting this diagnostic as you had said it previously. I think it must be a very common problem with this engine and in my case its not down to poor maintenance as I'm really too pedantic in this area.
Have had this car from new in 1993 and the oil has been changed every 5000.
The antifreeze changed every year,
Brake fluid every year and all filters etc.
Over the top really I know but its something I just do automatically every year.
Will see about getting it done as the car deserves looking after as its been such a good car and I use it in preference to my other one as it has more personality if you can say that about a car. We used it for many trips to Portugal but eventually stopped doing so because if it had ever broken down there would have been no chance of getting it repaired on the continent. And the breakdown insurance probably wouldnt even have bothered getting it back home but simply have given me a few quid in compensation.
regards
wemyss