Cold starting

[skippy]

I'd appreciate opinions on the likely cause of a cold-starting problem on my newly acquired 1987 Maestro Mayfair 1.3.
The engine will not fire at all from cold unless you firstly floor the accelerator; if you do that it starts immediately and after a short period of uneven running everything seems fine. Once warmed up it drives perfectly, smooth pickup and steady idling.
Other symptoms which may or may not be connected:
I suspect judging from the sooty tailpipe that it is running rich.
The engine tends to run on for a few seconds after turning off the ignition when hot.
There seems to be some fuel seepage from the carburettor; I think probably from the main carb to inlet manifold flange.

Should I suspect a faulty ecu or is the cold starting issue more likely to be something sticking or maladjustment?

[E_T_V]

If fuel is leaking out from the carb to maifold joint there is sure to be air getting in which will really mess up the mixture adjustment of the engine.

If it is an auto choke model then check the stepper motor is working correctly and the O rings are not split, perished or sticking because this will mess up the mixture adjustment too.

Fix the leak at the manifold joint with some gasket compound then check out the auto choke if fitted and then get the engien tuned properly. I'm fairly sure that will sort out the problems.

[topgear]

Small tip about getting the Stepper Motor off, if you need to!

Use an angle grinder! :horror:

[skippy]

Thanks for the tips, I will be sure to have my angle grinder at the ready before starting work! I've been trying to locate a source for Viton O-rings but so far my researches in Yellow Pages and Google have drawn a blank. Can anyone direct me to a supplier, preferably one who will do mail order?

[E_T_V]

Try looking under bearings and seals for your local seal supplier as they'll have them I'm sure..

I think this is something the club should probably look into stocking to be honest.

[MGTurbo]

I currently hold stock of the viton O rings. Keep a look out on ebay for them.

Gareth

[skippy]

I am having no success in sourcing these viton o-rings and I think it really would be a good idea for the club to keep a stock.

There is no "Bearings and Seals" category in my Yellow Pages, only bearings and these people appear to be industrial bearing suppliers.
I have scoured the internet. Several large suppliers of o-rings do not appear to do the BS013 size. I have emailed 3 others, none of whom have bothered to reply. I suppose they are not interested in small orders. I did find what I wanted in the US for a few dollars, but the only delivery option was by courier at $55 !

Nothing on eBay at the moment, only metric sets.

If there is anyone who can direct me to a specific supplier where they have managed to obtain these o-rings I would be most grateful.

[E_T_V]

Ok. I have taken it upon myself to go order some (well 100 to be precise) this lunchtime from my local supplier. They should arrive tomorrow and if the other committee members agree I shall add them to the spares stock. If not then I'll be flogging them on here for very little money.

I would guess a pair posted would cost around 50p but I'll work out the exact costs later.

[Beaker]

:thumbup: and :beer: for Dan from everyone else then, and a :nonono: from me for spending money ;) :D

[Jeff Turbo]

Guess who's been playing with the smiley men then?

[skippy]

I'm still having problems here. Having obtained the O-rings from the club, I ducked out of fitting them when I could not turn the screws and was afraid if I cut them off I would not be able to remove the stubs or source replacements. I have sent the car to my local garage, who I have always found extremely reliable and trustworthy.

They found that the fuel leak I described before is from the float chamber and the carb keeps flooding severely. A new needle valve has failed to cure the problem. They have managed to move the screws on the stepping motor a little but they appear to be fixed with Loctite or similar and the garage, like me, are unhappy about forcing them further in case they break off. In any case, they are doubtful that even if the O-rings are faulty this would cause the carb to flood so badly. The garage owner spent 3 hours last night checking out the carb and has now advised me to cut my losses and get a new or secondhand carb fitted.

Could I request expert opinions on this problem a.s.a.p. so I can instruct the garage how I wish them to proceed?

And does anyone have a new or good used replacement carb for a 1987 Maestro 1.3 or know where I could pick one up at reasonable cost?

[E_T_V]

It is unusual for the carburettor to wear excessively so I'd suspect that something is blocked somewhere or broken. It is possible that the O rings have split which will allow a lot of fuel through causing flooding. The retaining screws if they have to be ground off leave plenty of bolt left to grip and turn about 1.5-2 inches I think. As you are talking about fitting another carb you will have nothing to lose as you'll have to take the electronic control/stepper motor off anyway to fit to the new carb as most carbs you'll find won't have this fitted. I think I may have a spare carburettor in my garage somewhere however it'll be easier to find one from a scrap car local to you, (maybe even a mini one will fit?).

My advice would be to remove the stepper motor first. (you'll have to do this anyway if you want to fit it to another carb if you want to keep the electronic choke). If you find the rings are split then replace them and have another go. (Removing the stepper motor should only take a few minutes even if you have to drill/grind out the screws). If not then things are a little less clear cut. If you can find a cheap scrap carb then refit the stepper motor along with the new O-rings and then put it all together and get it re-tuned.

[Maria]

Can you see an HIFxxxx number on your carb anywhere? The club does have some new 1.3 carbs in stock.

[e692wtt]

Secured under one of the three screws that attaches the dashpot to the carb there will be a tag (usually sits vertically against the dashpot itself), and this will have a reference number that starts with FZX (eg FZX1422).

I think this is the number that the different carburettors are identified by, and is the one that Maria needs to know. Could be wrong though... :laugh:

Alternatively, the relevant FZX number should be listed in the Haynes' Manual that suits your car (my Haynes' Manual only runs to 1986, but then my Maestro is a 1983 model) if the tag on your carb is missing (they are easily 'lost').

[skippy]

Thanks for the responses. I have asked the chap at the garage to remove the stepping motor and check out the O-rings.

I think the carbs are all HIF44 aren't they? I have asked him to let me know the FZX number but if Maria could let me know the price of a new one I'd be interested, and if it's not too much trouble maybe the FZX numbers of the ones the club holds and whether they are auto-choke or manual.

Would I be right in thinking that if the FZX number is wrong the carb could be adapted quite easily by swapping jets or whatever?

[skippy]

The garage just got back to me (working on a Sunday afternoon - sounds expensive!) and the engine is running fine with a secondhand manual-choke carb they tried. Subject to fitting a choke cable and an appropriate accelerator cable I think we will probably leave it at that. However, they are going to examine the O-rings on the original carb to see if there is any obvious problem.

I still might be tempted by a new carb and I would be grateful if Maria could advise on availability from the club's stock and cost. The original auto-choke carb is an FZX1422.

[skippy]

Just a final (I hope) update on this. After removing the stepping motor, the garage found the O-rings were hard and brittle, though not split. After replacing them, the flooding problem was cured but the auto-choke is still not operating properly. Presumably there is something wrong with the stepping motor itself and/or the ECU. I am therefore going to go with the secondhand manual carb obtained by the garage once they have obtained the necessary cables.

[e692wtt]

One of the first things I did on my Monty 1.6L, back in '97, was fit a manual choke as the damn thing kept flooding. But I am wiser now and would hazard a guess at what might be wrong, especially as the automatic choke on my 1983 Maestro Vanden Plas works 100% fine (now, watch me post tomorrow that it's packed up :laugh: ). Replacing the O-rings (thanks to F153JUE and MaestroMatt for doing that!) made a hell of a difference to the Maestro's running at all speeds, not just when cold or at idle.

I'd say to check all the electrical connections in the automatic choke circuit, especially that at the fuel ECU but also at the Stepper Motor itself. It could even be the temperature sender unit failing and supplying spurious signals.

I'm happier driving a car with a manual choke than one with an automatic choke, to be honest, but that's just me.

If the temperature gauge is 'doing funny things' as well as the auto choke playing up, it is possible to bypass the fuel ECU after fitting a manual choke too - I wrote an article for Monstro way back when, that I can reproduce here or as an FAQ.

Glad you got it sorted anyway. :)