Turbo Fit?

[Blair G]

Does anyone remember the renault 18 turbo? (there was only around 500 of them made, if that). Well I picked up a nearly new turbo, intercooler and all the hoses from one, for next to nothing. I'm just wondering if the turbo will fit the Maesty/Monty as it would be another spare turbo for us.

It's a T3 but I'm not sure if it's 44 trim. Looks as though it will bolt straight on. :worried:

Cheers

www.blairgmotorsport.co.uk

[John S]

Quoted from Max Power, October 1994:-

"....only don't make the mistake of thinking any old T3 blower can be bolted on as a replacement; there are design differences peculiar to the T3 on the Maestro which means it won't bolt straight on".


John

[Blair G]

Quoted from Max Power, October 1994:-

"....only don't make the mistake of thinking any old T3 blower can be bolted on as a replacement; there are design differences peculiar to the T3 on the Maestro which means it won't bolt straight on".


John

Yes I know but if it does bolt straight on and it is 44 trim then will it produce the same power as the original when boost is turned up?

The reason I'm asking is that we seem to be blowing more turbo's than Garrett does on a test day lol

And at around £300 for a new replacement blower everytime we pop one.....................

www.blairgmotorsport.co.uk

[tony]

well is sounds like a good idea for a little project to me

[MGTurbo]

Didnt know they did a 44 trim. Maestro Turbo is 45 trim and it starts getting too hot above 14-15psi, it needs a bigger turbine housing with uprated bearing to take higher boost and reduce temps. I've never had a turbo blow on me and i'm not sympathtic.

Any turbo can be made to fit, there will be exhaust elbow differences but this may bolt onto the T3 flange, compressor housing may need rotating aswell.

Gareth

[RickMG]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm,

when i had my first Maestro turbo(333)

had it for 6 months or so,and i blew the turbo! should of seen it! smoke every where,thought i'd blew the engine up! i was only driving it a 60mph!
it was a very quick turbo,far quicker than the turbo i have now i managed to get a good turbo for just £20!!!!!! but it was never as quick again,spose the boost was turned down :rage:

Rick

[TurboMG]

Something must be wrong if you keep blowing turbos, perhaps you should look for the cause instead of replacing them each time.

[Blair G]

Something must be wrong if you keep blowing turbos, perhaps you should look for the cause instead of replacing them each time.

We already know what the problem is. We keep throwing on second hand turbos (much cheaper) and dont know how theyve been treated and somtimes how many miles its done. Once its in its turned to around 13psi boost, soon as the engines hot its never under 3000rpm and my shift light comes on 300rpm before the limiter kicks in. So it takes a fair amount of punishment.

This is the way its going to be untill we find a mint T16 engine.

www.blairgmotorsport.co.uk

[Blair G]

Forgot to mention its not a road car, its for racing on track and rallycross events.

www.blairgmotorsport.co.uk

[MGTurbo]

We already know what the problem is. We keep throwing on second hand turbos (much cheaper) and dont know how theyve been treated and somtimes how many miles its done. Once its in its turned to around 13psi boost, soon as the engines hot its never under 3000rpm and my shift light comes on 300rpm before the limiter kicks in. So it takes a fair amount of punishment.

This is the way its going to be untill we find a mint T16 engine.

www.blairgmotorsport.co.uk


For a cheap, fast car, T16 isnt the way to go. It needs alot of money chucking at it and the O series can produce similar power at a fraction of the cost. I could just be talking out of my arse though...

[Blair G]

For a cheap, fast car, T16 isnt the way to go. It needs alot of money chucking at it and the O series can produce similar power at a fraction of the cost. I could just be talking out of my arse though...

Moneys not the problem, being the fastest on the track is the problem and I cant see an O series engine being quicker than the likes of Andy nicols car.

[MGTurbo]

Moneys not the problem, being the fastest on the track is the problem and I cant see an O series engine being quicker than the likes of Andy nicols car.


Why not? Andy has spent about £15k on his engine so of course its going to be fast! It's really sad to see it dissed like that just because 'Andy's is the fastest and happens to be T16. I know plenty of O series Turbo's running 300bhp for a fraction of the cost of getting a T16 even close, and more importantly they dont keep blowing up!

It would cost about £2k to get an O series to 300bhp. 5-600 quid for a turbo, wire ring the block, balance the lot, bigger intercooler, up the fuelling, port the head, bosch, sorted you have near enough 300bhp.

To get a T series to the same, you need different rods and pistons (1200 for the rods, 5-600 for the pistons) then you need the bigger turbo (600-800 notes?) DTA engine management (getting on for a grand!) bigger intercooler 300 quid, i could go on and it gets silly.

If you think i'm wrong then just ignore me, but i have proven i the past that if you already have an O8 Turbo it is pretty pointless to go to T16 when you already have something stronger that can do the job.


If money is no object, get a V8.

Gareth

[Simon]

I remember the R18 Turbo. A bloke at college had one reg no. DTP***W which was a metallic grey one, with the later Fuego style dash and very weird "Petale" front seats which were soft and squashy. I'm sure it had a 1.6 litre engine, which kept going wrong. Nice instruments when lit up at night... I reckon my Allegro was just as fast :laugh:

[Blair G]

Why not? Andy has spent about £15k on his engine so of course its going to be fast! It's really sad to see it dissed like that just because 'Andy's is the fastest and happens to be T16. I know plenty of O series Turbo's running 300bhp for a fraction of the cost of getting a T16 even close, and more importantly they dont keep blowing up!

It would cost about £2k to get an O series to 300bhp. 5-600 quid for a turbo, wire ring the block, balance the lot, bigger intercooler, up the fuelling, port the head, bosch, sorted you have near enough 300bhp.

To get a T series to the same, you need different rods and pistons (1200 for the rods, 5-600 for the pistons) then you need the bigger turbo (600-800 notes?) DTA engine management (getting on for a grand!) bigger intercooler 300 quid, i could go on and it gets silly.

If you think i'm wrong then just ignore me, but i have proven i the past that if you already have an O8 Turbo it is pretty pointless to go to T16 when you already have something stronger that can do the job.


If money is no object, get a V8.

Gareth

I can see your point but I recon I can get a T16 to nearly 300bhp for about a grand. From 200 brake standard, filter and free the exhaust, 2 high lift cams, superchip, turn the boost up, 40 shot of N.O.S fed on WOT (wide open throttle) not the botton press crap, fit a direct cold water spray to the intercooler to "freeze" it at high speeds, set up the fueling and it wont be a kick in the arse off 300 horses.

V8 isnt an option as I'm trying to take wieght off the car, not add it, so a 2.0 forced induction is the only way. I dread to think of the understeer with a V8.........

www.blairgmotorsport.co.uk

[mgdavid]

have to respond to your comment about the weight of V8s - the all alloy Rover 3500 V8 as used in the MGBGTV8 by the factory in 1974 was actually a few pounds lighter than the 1800 B series iron block it replaced. Given that both O8 and T16 are iron blocks it should not be difficult to find a modern ally V8 of similar weight.

[Blair G]

have to respond to your comment about the weight of V8s - the all alloy Rover 3500 V8 as used in the MGBGTV8 by the factory in 1974 was actually a few pounds lighter than the 1800 B series iron block it replaced. Given that both O8 and T16 are iron blocks it should not be difficult to find a modern ally V8 of similar weight.

I know they are alloy and light but I woudnt have thought an MGBGTV8 engine to be lighter than a T16, it would make good paddock talk though "whats in that?" "a V8" "what, in a maestro?" "yes" :laugh:

Really though its not the road I want to go down here (to much like hard work to me :worried: )

[MGTurbo]

I can see your point but I recon I can get a T16 to nearly 300bhp for about a grand. From 200 brake standard, filter and free the exhaust, 2 high lift cams, superchip, turn the boost up, 40 shot of N.O.S fed on WOT (wide open throttle) not the botton press crap, fit a direct cold water spray to the intercooler to "freeze" it at high speeds, set up the fueling and it wont be a kick in the arse off 300 horses.

V8 isnt an option as I'm trying to take wieght off the car, not add it, so a 2.0 forced induction is the only way. I dread to think of the understeer with a V8.........

www.blairgmotorsport.co.uk


You obviously dont know enough about the engine to tune it at this stage it would seem.

I'll run a few things past you and then i'll tell you in reality what you can expect.

First of all they run a T25 Turbo. It is small, allows quick spool up, but runs out of puff at 5500rpm, and chucks out far too much heat. Standard boost on a 197bhp engine is 11.5psi. Most people go to 13psi and stop because A, the inlet temps are too hot, meaning you lose power and MEMS starts retarding the timing meaning even less power and hotter EGT's, and B as a result of these higher temps the piston crowns get very hot (despite overfuelling) and can and do crack the ringlands or even worse, melt! Go higher on the boost and you wont make much more power and increase the risk of a dead engine.

Because of the fragility of the pistons, a 40 shot of NOS maybe too much. Don't forget that the fuelling would need to be altered to cope with the NOS too, and this would mean a piggy back ECU at least (upping the fuel pressure isnt good enough!)

MEMS cannot be re-programmed. Therefore you cannot gain any power from a re-chip! All that can be done is remove the boost cut out (at 1 bar) and also the rev limiter if your on a death wish.

A cold water spray on the standard intercooler isnt going to knock temps down by more than 5 degrees. It's so poor at cooling, its part of the reason why the inlet temps are so high, so a full width intercooler is a MUST if you chose the T16 and you want to make some decent power.

Cams. Piper do 270's and they help in the mid-range but the small turbo issure needs sorting first before anything else, otherwise they add very little bhp.

All in all, on a budget of £1000, you will have to spend this on a full exhaust system,(£300) cold air induction kit,(£100) intercooler (£300) cams (£200) and a few bits and pieces. Your power level if you are lucky will be around 225-230bhp. This is the most you can expect.

Is it then worthwhile converting to T16 for what is minimal gain? IMO, no.

With the O series you already have a bigger turbo
You can increase the fuelling for nothing.
It's pistons and rods (which have under-crown cooling) can take nearly double the boost of a T16!
It produces more torque in the midrange as a result of the bigger turbo (which can run to 17psi)

And now you can see why i have kept my engine. This year, I have ported the head, this cost less than £100 including the skimming, welding, and 3-angle valve seats. I still have my original turbo. My twin intercooler's cost me pennies, the exhaust cost about £200 and i have modified the air intake so it retains standard element but only gets cool air and works as good as a £200 system!

It's cost me peanuts, and last year i had no trouble beating Scooby's and stuff up at pod, ran a time of 14.5 which was quicker than a T16 Monty, and its not blown up on me! Estimate of power is 230bhp @ 14psi, torque is over 240lb ft (it was 220lb ft when it was rolling roaded at 13psi and nothing else done to it!)

You can see i'm a devotee to this engine, it has been chucked away because the T16 'has 200bhp as standard', and 'oh its crap because it only has 8 valves'....... In reality a T16 barely chucks out 190bhp with less torque than a std O series!

BTW, the Rover V8 is very light for what it is, and the T16 is very closer in weight that you'd think....

I hope the above info helps clear up some myths and that you make the right choice for you, but i've given you some options to think about.

Gareth

[SubCat001]

For a grand you will be hard pushed to pass 220bhp let alone 300bhp. To exceed 250bhp you need to spend at least 2k on internals, then a turbo with a map that will flow enough air for you desired bhp & mappable management as mems gives up on fueling over 1bar. If you willing to spend the money then you can build a strong engine with great potential but if your on a budget you might as well stick with an O series turbo.

Just to add iam T series devotee :)

[Blair G]

I happen to know a guy from MG Rover Works and hes running about 300bhp on a T16 and I know for a fact he hasnt changed pistons, turbo or intercooler. I wont see him untill Monday or Tuseday but I will get the spec (and possibly the rolling road print out) and post it in here.

I dont disrespect 8 valve engines and I'll tell you why. My mate has a Nova (track car) with an 8 valve Cavy SRI engine and a rolling road print out of 127bhp. Our Impreza is 301bhp and if he gets in tight behide me coming onto the straight, by the time we hit the hairpin hes about 10 feet back :rage: I am really not happy about this as you can expect. This should not happen but it does (and yes its quicker then the Maesty's which ****es me off even more :nonono: :rage: ). For any Knockhill attenders in here its the red max power nova with the Dodge Viper stripes (he has 2 the same its the older style one).
The problem I have with the O series engine is the parts for these are getting rarer by the day and we go through a mass amount of parts as you could probably imagine.

Further to this original post the boys phoned me today and informed me the R18 turbo is now fitted and running sweet (no smoke but still on standard boost) on the Maesty.

www.blairgmotorsport.co.uk

[MGTurbo]

I happen to know a guy from MG Rover Works and hes running about 300bhp on a T16 and I know for a fact he hasnt changed pistons, turbo or intercooler. I wont see him untill Monday or Tuseday but I will get the spec (and possibly the rolling road print out) and post it in here.



Yes, please do give more info, because what are saying goes against all T16 tuning techniques in the past 10 years. I'll be honest, its impossible to get 300 from a T25 and standard internals and everything else. 230 tops as i've already said.

Gareth

[Blair G]

You obviously dont know enough about the engine to tune it at this stage it would seem.

Gareth

No, not much it would seem as I put a T16 (non turbo) in a maesty three and a half years ago and have had it stripped down to every nut and bolt about 8 times...........and for all the problems its had its never missed a track/race day yet..........and as it stands its very close to the O series turbo without forced induction. If I put my mind to it I could easily get it going quicker than a Maesty turbo but I have 4 track cars to deal with at the moment. As I only have 2 hands I cant do everything at once................

I have "played" with this engine and it beats 3.0 Toyota Supra's (proved)
To see the Maestys I've done myself (and curranty own) go to-
http://www.freewebs.com/blairgmotorsport/cars.htm


www.blairgmotorsport.co.uk

[MGTurbo]

No, not much it would seem as I put a T16 (non turbo) in a maesty three and a half years ago and have had it stripped down to every nut and bolt about 8 times...........and for all the problems its had its never missed a track/race day yet..........and as it stands its very close to the O series turbo without forced induction. If I put my mind to it I could easily get it going quicker than a Maesty turbo but I have 4 track cars to deal with at the moment. As I only have 2 hands I cant do everything at once................

I have "played" with this engine and it beats 3.0 Toyota Supra's (proved)
To see the Maestys I've done myself (and curranty own) go to-
http://www.freewebs.com/blairgmotorsport/cars.htm


www.blairgmotorsport.co.uk

I'm not about to have a slagging off match, the point i am trying to make is that the T series Turbo is not a Cossie engine, conventional ideas like chipping dont work, whacking the boost up needs to be done with caution etc.

I appreciate the fact that you fitted a NASP T16 into a Maestro but its not a hard conversion, the hardest bit is the wiring.

3 litre Supra's are not fast. I've driven one and it was like a tank.

I've been involved with the T Series for many years now (about 6 years) I've worked at a rolling road so i know what works, i'm a moderator on RoverTech and i give people advice on how to tune these engines and i tell them how it is. I think i'm qualified enough to say what does and doesnt work on these engines. And i know that 300bhp is impossible on stock internals, intercooler and turbo! People spend £1000's and often cannot get above 250bhp on a T28!

Gareth

[Blair G]

[QUOTE=MGTurbo}

3 litre Supra's are not fast. I've driven one and it was like a tank.

Gareth[/QUOTE]

Yes your probably right mate, if your on about a standard road car on a public road. The supra I bet had a £7000 track conversion done to it.

Most people dont realise the differance between a road car and a race car. EG- 300 brake from a 2.0 NASP engine (doesnt matter who makes it) says enough.

The fact is I can do a drag strip in 7.9 secs (ask me to prove it) and at a rough guess thats probably about half the time youve ever done it in.

So at the end of the day having raced on every track in the UK and doing the Isle of man TT every year, your few runs down Santa doesnt really impress me mate.

Blair G

[MGTurbo]

[QUOTE=MGTurbo}

3 litre Supra's are not fast. I've driven one and it was like a tank.

Gareth

Yes your probably right mate, if your on about a standard road car on a public road. The supra I bet had a £7000 track conversion done to it.

Most people dont realise the differance between a road car and a race car. EG- 300 brake from a 2.0 NASP engine (doesnt matter who makes it) says enough.

The fact is I can do a drag strip in 7.9 secs (ask me to prove it) and at a rough guess thats probably about half the time youve ever done it in.

So at the end of the day having raced on every track in the UK and doing the Isle of man TT every year, your few runs down Santa doesnt really impress me mate.

Blair G[/QUOTE]


Hey, i know i could do better, but a 7.9 1/4 is a bit of out any fWD car's reach :laugh:

Spoke to a number of people about your plans to get 300bhp for a grand, and your friend with the 300bhp T25 T16, and they all :laugh: :laugh: , because they know it's impossible! Sorry!

[TurboMG]

Still waiting for the spec and rolling road graph???

[SubCat001]

Most people dont realise the differance between a road car and a race car. EG- 300 brake from a 2.0 NASP engine (doesnt matter who makes it) says enough.

The fact is I can do a drag strip in 7.9 secs (ask me to prove it) and at a rough guess thats probably about half the time youve ever done it in.

So at the end of the day having raced on every track in the UK and doing the Isle of man TT every year, your few runs down Santa doesnt really impress me mate.

Blair G

I'd like to know what your running a 7.9 sec 1/4 in??? Certainly not a road legal or race car.

300bhp out of 2.0 Nasp whats your point??? You wont be building one for a grand.

Std spec T series turbo wont make 300bhp at the Fly with any sort of realablity.

[Blair G]

Still waiting for the spec and rolling road graph???

I said Monday or Tuesday.

[Blair G]

I'd like to know what your running a 7.9 sec 1/4 in??? Certainly not a road legal or race car.

Yes sure its called a Yamaha YZF R1 tuned to the hilt and back again :p I never once said I done a 7.9 in a car cos that would be silly...........probably do 0-100 and stop again in roughly just over 10 secs :) . Best of it is though I have somthing even quicker than that ;)

www.blairgmotorsport.co.uk

[Blair G]

Payed a visit to Ian from MG Rover works today. Last time I seen him he had a Rover 220 Coupe running 281bhp. Now he has a Rover 600 T16 running 267bhp. Both cars are running on standard turbos ect.

So, what has he done? He wouldnt tell me (or anyone for that matter). But he says if you take a standard T16 and 1000 quid along to him, he'll get it to at least 250bhp. I took his car out for a quick blast and yes its quicker than I expected, looking under the bonnet the only thing I could see was a differant brain altogether and more wiring (I think).

I said to him a lot of people say you cant do this and he said "and whoever says that probably hasnt worked on rover engines every day for the last 25 years" Fair enough I thought and left it at that.

Now for the warning
He explained that whatever he does is clearly no use to the likes of me (for racing) I would get about 20 laps at race speed and there would be a high chance of complete meltdown. Ok for normal everyday road use though.

He also thinks (along with many others) I should stick with the O series turbo engine (and forget the T16) but mentioned somthing about a 1.8 twin turbo being good too.

[MGTurbo]

I said to him a lot of people say you cant do this and he said "and whoever says that probably hasnt worked on rover engines every day for the last 25 years" Fair enough I thought and left it at that.

Now for the warning
He explained that whatever he does is clearly no use to the likes of me (for racing) I would get about 20 laps at race speed and there would be a high chance of complete meltdown. Ok for normal everyday road use though.

He also thinks (along with many others) I should stick with the O series turbo engine (and forget the T16) but mentioned somthing about a 1.8 twin turbo being good too.



It doesnt take 25 years to understand that an engine with pistons designed right on the limit without under-crown cooling, a turbo that when run with higher boost pressures will exceed 80 degrees C on full boost and a standard intercooler will eventually suffer meltdown! It was most likely a piggy back ECU used to obtain the extra power.

Other people have used this, it dials in alot of extra advance, something MEMS (and to a lesser extent Lucas in the O) doesn't do. It's noticable on full boost in the O and feels strong to 3500rpm, flattens off then picks up again. During this time EGT's can be seen to rise but tail off after this point, so definatly a bit too much safety retard there.

One chap had standard intercooler, std turbo, Unichip, 14psi. He obtained 256bhp on this set up but he melted two pistons.... If he had better pistons, a bigger intercooler and a T28 this wouldnt have happened. He would have made a heck of a lot more power too.

The only way i can see this guy getting so much power on such a standard engine is to stretch it out of its design parameters. A good engine will last what ever is thrown at it, this is the sign of an engine that will ALWAYS make the power.

Its interesting that we do agree on the O series and its not common for people to think along the same lines as myself, but then it must prove i am talking some sense and not making it up as i go along.

Gareth

[E_T_V]

I was always of the thought that if you have got forced induction the number of valves is almost irrelavent as air is forced in rather than the engine trying to suck it in. Of course there is a small difference due to less valves but to compensate you just up the boost a bit!

[mgdavid]

>>>>The problem I have with the O series engine is the parts for these are getting rarer by the day
=== yes, and that's 'cos you have confessed to keep trashing them. I do suggest you go down the T16 route - then the few remaining O series turbo cars will be left for those that look after them. :laugh: :banghead: :nonono: :giveup:

[MGTurbo]

Apart from pistons, what parts are you having trouble getting hold of?

Gareth

[SubCat001]

Running aftermarket mappable management or a piggyback unit will make a huge difference to its potential. Ignoring the pistons for a moment everything else is on its limits. Standard Garrett T25??? In Rover trim a std T25 couldn't provide the airflow for that sort of power. Infact it would become a huge restriction on the intake side. Injectors IRC are 330cc and for that capacity would be nearing to 100% duty.
Well done to the chap if he's done it...but i doubt either engine will be blessed with longevity.

]I was always of the thought that if you have got forced induction the number of valves is almost irrelavent as air is forced in rather than the engine trying to suck it in. Of course there is a small difference due to less valves but to compensate you just up the boost a bit!

In terms of drivability a forced induced 8valve engine will vary little from an equivlant 16 valve engine. But when it comes to making peak power Airflow is always king and multivalve engine will always have an advantage. As the surface area of the valves is always going to be greater.

[Blair G]

>>>>The problem I have with the O series engine is the parts for these are getting rarer by the day
=== yes, and that's 'cos you have confessed to keep trashing them. I do suggest you go down the T16 route - then the few remaining O series turbo cars will be left for those that look after them. :laugh: :banghead: :nonono: :giveup:

Hi my name is Craig and I am one of Blair's mechanics, and you clearly no nothing about racing. We do not "trash" engines of any kind. If we break an engine we do our uttermost to repair it, not replace it.

I worked with turbo technics for 5 years and was involved in the creation of the 8 second toyota supra (which funnily enough, I have the video of) so I dare say I know my way round an engine.

After reading through most of this forum its clear to me that if you post somthing thats not in the "haynes" , then its wrong according to the users.

I dont mean to cause an argument here but we work our ass'es off to keep the cars and bikes racing, and its hard work. A bit more than throwing a car through an MOT every 12 months.

If you want I can supply you with Mat Neal's (touring car driver) email address so you can tell him he "trashes" engine's as he can go through 4 engines in one weekend. Where as we try to keep the same engine for 2 or 3 years, regardless of the cost of repair.

Craig from blairgmotorsport.co.uk

[mgdavid]

Craig, I can only go by what I read - your driver wrote "The reason I'm asking is that we seem to be blowing more turbo's than Garrett does on a test day lol
" and went on to describe how he thows in secondhand turbos, winds the boost up and drives them between 3000 and the rev limit until they blow. If you are as good a spannerman as your experience would claim (and I have no reason to doubt it) then I'm surprised you are not working with a driver with a more professional - dare I say mature - approach. You are right, I don't know too much about racing, recently regraded to A licence and just back from a weekend race at the Nordschleife with as big a grin as a biker gets on the TT :-)

[Blair G]

Craig, I can only go by what I read - your driver wrote "The reason I'm asking is that we seem to be blowing more turbo's than Garrett does on a test day lol
" and went on to describe how he thows in secondhand turbos, winds the boost up and drives them between 3000 and the rev limit until they blow. If you are as good a spannerman as your experience would claim (and I have no reason to doubt it) then I'm surprised you are not working with a driver with a more professional - dare I say mature - approach. You are right, I don't know too much about racing, recently regraded to A licence and just back from a weekend race at the Nordschleife with as big a grin as a biker gets on the TT :-)


Hi its Craig again, I think what you are reffering to is called 'testing'. We spend the best part of £5000 every year on testing alone, before the cars/bikes even get near a race.

Your comments about Blair's professionalism is fair enough, as you dont know him. I wouldnt be doing what I'm doing if there wasnt good results. The guy can race (on 2 wheels or 4) and thats what counts at the end of the day. If you do some research you'll find he was world champion jet skier in 97/98 when in America and had numerous tarmac lap records. Currantly being the fastest ever to go round knockhill in a standard road going MG Maestro 2.0 EFI, lapping at 1.03, its a good time for a mere 110bhp. I must add that he has got a 2005 Yamaha team ride in the Brittish championship so that should say enough.

I suppose you will always get someone who challenges a teams ability though. When it comes to maestros we only use these for fun and to gain more track time. We are now on the point of consideration of changing to the MG TF.

Craig.