Poor Lighting

[redmaestro]

After a journey from hell yesterday, I'm seriously thinking up on my Efi. I won't bore you with all the details, but I was stuck for 2hrs on the M56 yesterday in a massive tailback created by two car accidents up head of me. The weather was terrible, heavy wind and rain so I guess this was the cause of both crashes. Anyway whilst driving upto the tailback, the heavy rain seriously reduced my headlight lighting to the point where it looked like they were turned off!

I was wondering if buying a new set of lights would offer better lighting? My current headlights are in very good condition, with very little damage/wear to the reflectors & lens', and I'm using the 90% bulbs from Halfrauds (the £20.00 each ones).

Thanks as always!

redm

[Austin-Rover]

Are you trying to say that the rain was so heavy that the beam from the headlamps was struggling to penetrate the blanket of rain? Or that your headlights were dimming in response to rain interfering with the electricals?

The headlamps on the Maestro are very good as they are, and you shouldn't have any problems 'seeing' if you have good quality bulbs as well. Just remember that sometimes there will be weather that is exceptional. If you were struggling to see through the rain, chances are everyone else was too. More powerful headlamps bulbs won't really make a difference as if the rain is that heavy you should have slowed down considerably anyway.

My other thought would be that if the weather was terrible, you're likely to have the heater blower on, heated rear window on and the headlamps on. With a high electrical load like that, and if your alternator isn't in good condition, your headlamps won't be as bright as they should be.

[redmaestro]

Hi, thanks for the suggestions.

Just to explain in more detail: Was only doing 40 on a 50mph road, with a nice gap inbetween me and a white van ahead. Only CD player (on quiet), front blower on I, front wipers and possibily rear demister. Alt was replaced a couple of years ago and no probs starting ect!

Even is good conditions, the headlight light is poor. To compare, my girlfriends has a Ford KA and her dipped is way brighter than my main beam.

[Beaker]

Put some HIDs in, the newer ones come with much smaller ballast packs nowadays so you can conceal the better if you like to keep the OE look.

[G51 NAV]

Personally I've always thought Maestro headlights are crap. I fitted brand new (NOS) units to MGT 396 and I still think a six volt torch taped to the bonnet would illuminate the tarmac better than the standard dipped headlights. I even wasted money on so-called "90% brighter" lamps off ebay, and I think they were actually dimmer than the original halogen ones. They're now something else gathering dust up in my drawer of 'sh!te I'll probably never use but won't bin because it cost me good money'.

[D87 SMW]

I've got some eBay ones in the Montego and they're superb. If I'm honest they're as good if not better than those in my dad's Rover 75.

[redmaestro]

Put some HIDs in, the newer ones come with much smaller ballast packs nowadays so you can conceal the better if you like to keep the OE look.

What are HID's and how do you install them? Are they any good?

[E_T_V]

Yes they are very good but the beam pattern on them is rubbish when I tried them in the maestro car lights. I'll have another go as it is worth the hassle. All my other cars now have them fitted.

However check the headlight reflectors immediately above the bulb. This area commonly "burns" the silvering and they end up white. When this happens the dipped beam is rubbish although quite often the main beam is still good.

Xenon filled normal bulbs are better than standard bulbs and new standard bulbs are better than old standard bulbs. Many maestros still have the factory fit bulbs in them which are well past their best by now.

[F825 UBD]

I've owned a number of Austin/rovers over the years (Metros, Maestro, Montego, mk3 200). Not one has had decent lights- I really went to town on my Monty too- changing everything that could be changed...result: No difference! I've just come to the conclusion that they're all crap...

[henocsr]

i would guess that the problem you have is a voltage drop as with most masetros and montegos.

If you do a volt drop test on the live feed to the head lamp bulbs you will fit it to have about a 2.5v drop. This can be over come by fitting relays which can be wired up to be switched by the current lamp feeds giving 14.2v battery voltage when running to the lamps.

I did this to my last Maestro and it made the headlamps which to be fair are a great design to be as bright as modern car head lamps.

If a club member could spare the time i would be more than happy to draw diagrams do a how to etc etc

[Russ]

There is a relay in the circuit, so did you put one one each lamp?

I bit the bullitt with mine and fitted 80s period spot lamps but its still crap on dipped even with osram uprated bulbs. The lamps I fitted were dealer options at a few dealers in the NE minories in Middlesbrough fitted them as did gordon McLoughlan of Guisborough so im happy to live with them

[henocsr]

i added 4 relays in total and mounted them 2 behind each lamp ( one for main beam one for dip beam. You have to disable the dim dip side lights by disconnecting the resistor as well.

I would be happy to draw out a diagram and post it to you if you would like to go down those lines

[Russ]

Does the extra couple of volts make that much difference?

[henocsr]

well yes a big difference.

so you can see the differnce take the connector of the back of the passenger side head lamp bulb. look at the connector as a guide and put a bit of wire on the bulb terminal that would normally be connected to the earth (black wire on the lamp connector) striaght to the battery earth termainal.
And use a 15 amp fused bit of wire from the battery positive to one of the other bulb termainals (one will be dip and the other main beam) you should find your head lamp bulb now lights up. Now start the engine and turn on the lights, you can now see the difference between the car controled head lamp bulb on the drivers side and your direct battery feed bulb on the passenger side

[steve smith]

would liek to see a diagram want to make my monty lights a bit better

[henocsr]

here is the daigram, as you can see you need to cut into the oriagnal loom at the back of each headlamp. the oriaganl earth can stay the same but you need to join the wires on the bulb plug to pin87 on your new relays and the oriangal main beam and dip beam wires to pin 85 on your relays.
If you car has dim dip side lights you will have to leave the resistor, which is behind the nearside of the front bumper under the headlamp, disconnected if you dont when the side lights are switched on you will get dip beam.

In operation
When you turn your side lights on just the small 'capless' bulbs will light up

When you turn dip beam headlights on a feed from the oriangal lamp circuit supplies pin 85 on your extra relays and as pin 86 is always earthed it causes the relay to click. When clicked the 30amp fused battery voltage at pin 30 on the relay can now get though to pin 87 therefore suppling the dip beam side of the bulb. The bulb earths down its normal earth (make sure the front chassis earths are good)

When you turn main beam on the same happens as above but with the main beam side of the bulb.

PLEASE NOTE

If you do not know what you are doing with car electrics please dont try this yourself get someone who does to help you

[E_T_V]

Adding relays is a bigger benefit on early cars which have the column surround as all of the current flows through this switch.

The later ones can also give a benefit but to be honest it isn't 2 volts worth I reckon. nearer 1 volt if that. (Measure the voltage at the bulb terminals with both setups for a fair comparison)

[Russ]

Im off up to Scotland and Keilder shortly to follow the Roger Albert clark rally, so I thought I would fit a couple of bigger spots . My first thoughts were to fit a pair of lucas 20/20s I had but on visiting my mum in Yorkshire I discovered the ones I have one has a slight crack and there are no covers. I then thought Id fit a pair of cibie oscars I have only to find they are 'dipping' oscars with the H4 bulbs so would need a bit of messing to sort the wiring. My last option was a pair of super oscars which are huge. Any way ive fitted them and the car looks a bit like a pair of lights with a maestro stuck to them! The lights are superb with 100w bulbs and its only for winter so I may be able to live with abuse :o

And for you older ones like me note the genuine lombard RAC sunstrip

[henocsr]

Adding relays is a bigger benefit on early cars which have the column surround as all of the current flows through this switch.

The later ones can also give a benefit but to be honest it isn't 2 volts worth I reckon. nearer 1 volt if that. (Measure the voltage at the bulb terminals with both setups for a fair comparison)

Well it made a big difference on mine. Oriagnally only about 10volts at the bulbs before then after rewiring a full 14.20v. In fact i didnt do the main beam ones first just the dip beam and i found that going on main beam was like the lights got dimmer comparied to my rewired dip

[Russ]

Actually before i fitted those lights to my car, a friend of mine who used to work for hella motorsport suggested I hotwire the lights which is what is being discussed here. When we measured the voltage it was 13.2v which he reconned was ok. He said it was common on 80s relly cars to 'hot wire' them mostly where the lights were switched by the switch only and not with relays

[E_T_V]

Yes the Mk1 maestro is like this (although has a relay, the full current goes through the column mounted switch which is why it commonly melts).

The later ones are much better.

if in doubt measure the voltage drop between the battery and headlamp connector.

[redmaestro]

I've got some eBay ones in the Montego and they're superb. If I'm honest they're as good if not better than those in my dad's Rover 75.

What are they called? I might invest in a pair :-)

[Russ]

here is the daigram, as you can see you need to cut into the oriagnal loom at the back of each headlamp. the oriaganl earth can stay the same but you need to join the wires on the bulb plug to pin87 on your new relays and the oriangal main beam and dip beam wires to pin 85 on your relays.
If you car has dim dip side lights you will have to leave the resistor, which is behind the nearside of the front bumper under the headlamp, disconnected if you dont when the side lights are switched on you will get dip beam.

In operation
When you turn your side lights on just the small 'capless' bulbs will light up

When you turn dip beam headlights on a feed from the oriangal lamp circuit supplies pin 85 on your extra relays and as pin 86 is always earthed it causes the relay to click. When clicked the 30amp fused battery voltage at pin 30 on the relay can now get though to pin 87 therefore suppling the dip beam side of the bulb. The bulb earths down its normal earth (make sure the front chassis earths are good)

When you turn main beam on the same happens as above but with the main beam side of the bulb.

PLEASE NOTE

If you do not know what you are doing with car electrics please dont try this yourself get someone who does to help you

Just tried putting battery volts to the dipped beam,even though its only increasing the voltage by 1.2v it makes quite a big difference.
I was thinking of mounting the relays inside and just using 2 but by the time ive found all the wiring its probable easier mounting 2 each side in the engine comp.
Questions Is there any battery + down the O/s engine compartment or will I need to run a feed round the back of the engine?
Does anyone know where the RH and LH headlight wires split or is it from the fuse? I suppose I could mount 2 relays on the N/S wing then splice into the O/S headlight wiring under the servo?

[E_T_V]

The lamps are switched on the earth side from memory, and you'd need 2 "standard" relays per side. If you use double pole relays then one would do.

1.2v seems like a big drop. Are you sure the bulb connectors and earth points are clean?

I know I posted up some diagrams an age ago which could be modded to do what you want.

I also might have some that I made for my van which is similar but a fair bit more complicated.

[Russ]

When you look at the diagram for the car, the relay in the fusebox is only there for ignition switch off and the little light switch is actualy in the main lighting circuit and there is also the dim-dip circuit so 1.2v isnt too much. when I did my test i put a wire in the bulb terminal and connected it to the battery thus proving the headlamp earth.
Im pretty certain 2 standard relays will be up to the job each relay switching both modes of both lights.
Im still wondering about sticking some mirror film on the reflector behind the bulb.
I WILL SEE IN THE DARK!!

[G51 NAV]

Am I being dim? (pun intended)
An increase of 1.2V (to 13V?) is 'only' an increase of ten point odd percent.
Rather than patching-in relays, is it just not simpler to buy higher-wattage/brighter-output bulbs which will give the same light on 11V(ish) as the current ones give on 13V(ish)?
That's the route I was going to try anyway.
Do tell me if I'm talking lobbox and missing half the issue.

[Russ]

Its alredy got osram 90% brighter bulbs. I had some 130w bulbs in one of my old cars, for some reason the beam pattern dissappears with them and also they arnt good for the light switch.
Like you I was very sceptical of such a small increase in volts until I tried last night putting a direct lead to the battery the increase in actual light is quite something. Im just waiting for a parcel to come then im off to the car shop to get cable and relay bases. Going to mount 2 relays on bases somewhere near the 2 fuel system relays so it shuold look pretty neat.

[G51 NAV]

Ah fair shout Russ...I was just trying to think of a solution which wouldn't have involved hacking about with the original wiring.

[Russ]

Im not that keen on chopping into the loom ,but if it means better lights then so be it. Project on hold now till morning as just as got all my bits it started p'ing down:mad:

[E_T_V]

When you look at the diagram for the car, the relay in the fusebox is only there for ignition switch off and the little light switch is actualy in the main lighting circuit and there is also the dim-dip circuit so 1.2v isnt too much. when I did my test i put a wire in the bulb terminal and connected it to the battery thus proving the headlamp earth.
Im pretty certain 2 standard relays will be up to the job each relay switching both modes of both lights.
Im still wondering about sticking some mirror film on the reflector behind the bulb.
I WILL SEE IN THE DARK!!

Is yours a Mk1 dash or a Mk2?

On the Mk1 dash the full current passes through the column mounted switch. In the Mk2 dash it doesn't. For the earlier dash I can imagine a 1.2v drop is perfectly possible. For the later ones it seems a bit high unless you are running high wattage bulbs.

There is a seperate power supply for left and right lamps for safety reasons. Using just two relays will remove this safety feature.

The first port of call is always to check the headlamp reflector. The commonly burn and either go white or yellow directly above the bulb giving the poor light output. I wrote an article for monstro some years ago on how to resolve it. Infact it had various options for getting better headlamps.

[Russ]

Had a quick look in the manual ,mines a mk2 and it seems like the relay is only there for ignition switch control of the lights an the little switch actually handles the full current. The reflectors look very good, I was going to recover them in mirror film for wing mirrors but they seem ok

[Russ]

Ive now had a change of plan, ive fitted the cibie lights they are actually called 'Bi Oscars' (you should see some of the results on google for that :eek:) basicly they are a fog lamp on dip and a driving lamp on main. I fitted a double relay with a switched earth on one of them wired to a foglamp switch this prevents both fillaments being on at the same time and fitted ring xenon max bulbs. The result is pretty impressive and they look quite good as they are not much bigger than the lucas ones i had before.
As for the hot wire project im going to leave that until next year and change the dash as mine has a slight warp. While its out im going to mount 4 relays on the glovebox top panel ant tap in the loom inside the car.
the other thing I did today was wire in an interior light switch to save fumbling behind your head to get a light on. Both switches were from a rangerover so are the same as MM and mounted them in a 6 hole plate instead of 2 and a coin tray

[digital efi]

While its out im going to mount 4 relays on the glovebox top panel ant tap in the loom inside the car.


You will need to make sure that you use a decent wire thickness if you are mounting the relays away from the lights.
Otherwise, you will end up with a voltage drop in your new wiring system just like the car left the factory with.

If you mount your relays near the headlamps, you will not need to chop any of the original wiring, as you can use the existing bulb plugs to connect your relay 'trigger' wires and then run your main power wiring from the relays direct to the tags on the bulbs. The only original part that will need to be modified will be the cover on the back of the headlamp: drill it and run your new wiring through the hole (with a grommet of course).

[digital efi]

A couple of previous posts in this thread have referred to battery voltages of 13, 14.2 etc.

If you are suffering from poor headlamps it is well worth checking that the alternator is performing as well as it should.

If the alternator is not giving its full output (which can happen as it gets older) you may only end up with approx 12-12.5 volts at the battery terminals with the engine running. (a healthy one should comfortably exceed 13 volts)
This can result in voltages in the region of 10.5 at the headlamps, especially if other electrical equipment is in use (wipers, heated rear window, blower, etc)

[Russ]

I rebuilt the alternator last year and is still performing well, I do wonder if the voltage drop is down to the amount of contacts in the headlight system. As other circuits within the car get the full battery voltage . I tried my new cibies out tonight in the snow and they are fantastic. When on dip you can still see in falling snow and a good beam when on main, better infact than the 100w dx150s i have

[Russ]

Update on lighting. I still plan at some stage to fit relays to the headlights (when I renew my dash) but due to being busy with a house move this summer I havnt got round to it. I did make a hella style grille which looks ok from a distance. But I took some voltage readings- with the lights on main beam, wipers ,heater fan and HWR the voltage drops to 12.8 on idle. I got a very cheap new 80A A127 alternator. After making a sleave to fit the maestro pulley I fitted it. With the same load the voltage is 14.1.
Under normal running the lights are a lot better, it seems that using a higher ouput alternater there is a lot more redundency which means you more or less have a constant voltage of around 14V ( ive checked and it doesnt go above 14.4 even with no load and at high revs) It may even last longer as it isnt doing a lot of work.
Picture with hella grille