t16 alternative

[monty_dom]

Im looking forward to getting behind the wheel of a monty again and, after 2 modern diesels i was thinking is it possable to slot an L series diesel into a monty? i think it would be easyier to do phisically as its almost identical to the old perkins prima it replaced on the outside, just modernised and tunable:D. Its possable to squeese 160 bhp from an L without breaking the bank and that much power with the 340NM of torque would put me close on the tail of you T16 boys and still get me 45-50 mpg. Any thoughts would be most welcome

[MG MAL]

Talk to Dan (E_T_V)

he is currently fitting an L series to his van.

mal.

[E_T_V]

Check my blog for fitting an L series into a maestro/montego.

160bhp isn't easy. I'm aiming for 150 from mine and roughly 250ftlb but the torque level will depend on the clutch.

The L series is virtually the same size as the T series and suffers from the same cross member problem. I've hopefully managed to get around this but I'll let you know if it works!

[monty_dom]

thanks for the info dan will be very interested to see how it goes especially the plumbing. Do you need to make any mods to the front end mount and are you using the L-series box or the van box, I was thiking of putting the rover box and dials in if they will fit so i would get the digital speedo and a revcounter

[E_T_V]

Plumbing is virtually done, just the return fuel line to the tank to put in and a few hose clips. The box is currently the 600 donor car box but I think the ratios might be a bit short but we'll see. I've got a monty turbo diesel box too and may make a cross breed out of the two, but we'll see.

I'm trying to fit a digi-dash so I'll get the digi speedo, rev counter etc, but fitting a conventional 2.0 petrol dash would have been the easier option.

Gearbox end mount is standard one
Gearbox/rear mount is a modified prima one
Engine mount is totally custom made using bits of the old 600 mount.

[countrydude]

Its possable to squeese 160 bhp from an L without breaking the bank and that much power with the 340NM of torque would put me close on the tail of you T16 boys and still get me 45-50 mpg. Any thoughts would be most welcome

My thoughts are you are being VERY optimistic on your fuel economy. And as Dan says 160 from an L would be pushing the boundaries. You would have to upgrade so much to hold that figure. 140 is much more reliable as a target. To still maintain a fair fuel economy and longevity of the engine.

It is an idea that I haven't written off just yet too!

[matthewsemple]

We easily get 40 mpg from our T-Series Turbo (in a Rover 220 Coupe) so even 45-50 mpg is not terribly good, especially considering that when fuel prices are high, diesel can cost 60p a gallon more than petrol. That differential seems to have disappeared at the moment but could easily return as demand for diesel is higher than petrol.

A fact I heard on 5th Gear the other day: if you buy a diesel Mondeo and do 10,000 miles a year, it takes 11 years to break even on the cheaper petrol model!

As a project, it is interesting and I admire Dan's pioneering work - but I have yet to be convinced by the cost advantage of diesels. Clearly it will be better drive than an A-Series petrol but I doubt it would better the T-Series Turbo as an all-rounder in terms of economy v. power.

Having said all that, I am just off to read Dan's blog!

[countrydude]

A fact I heard on 5th Gear the other day: if you buy a diesel Mondeo and do 10,000 miles a year, it takes 11 years to break even on the cheaper petrol model!

Facts? on top gear?

To give a rough idea I made a journey in my countryman, most of the journey driving with a leaden foot to rugby (approx 80-90mph traffic allowing as the majority of the journey is motorway) I managed to burn around a 1/4 of a tank.

A return journey was done in a T16 maestro which was driven conservatively around 70-80mpg using the exact same route. We managed to burn a 1/3 of a tank.

A much better illustration of the economy of a diesel engine over petrol than the contrived Top Gear dribblings!

[matthewsemple]

If you re-read my post you'll see that I never mentioned Top Gear.

Whilst we can all give examples of diesels returning better fuel consumption than a high performance petrol engine - the T16 has more than twice the power of the Perkins diesel - the point made is that as all cars at some stage in their lives were purchased new, it is almost always cheaper to buy the petrol version and it takes many years to get your money back if you opt for the diesel.

The Mondeo diesel took 11 years at average mileage and I once read on MSN Motoring that in a similar comparison, a VW Golf diesel takes eight years to reach the break even point with the equivalent petrol. Therefore to make the savings on an older car, we are reliant on people being duped into thinking that buying a new diesel will save them money when most people who buy a new car do not keep them long enough to reap the rewards.

There are a few exceptions like the Kia C'eed which is the same price regardless of petrol or diesel or the Jaguar X-Type where the diesel engine is smaller than the petrol and nearly new diesel X-Types are cheaper than the V6 petrol equivalent. But with most cars, like the Golf and Mondeo, a small petrol engine will be about £1500 cheaper than the diesel - because they are generally fitted with turbochargers - and £1500 buys a lot of fuel.

[E_T_V]

You might get 40mpg out of your T16 but I don't! Best it has ever done is 37 on its first journey back from buying it. Usually it is more like 35mpg or less if giving it some stick.
As a contrast the L series in my 600 will do over 50mpg if driven slowly but still returns 40mpg driven hard. I'm not doing the change soley for the economy point of view, (although it is a factor), diesels are just lazier and easier to drive and that is what I want in a camper, I dislike the T16 on the motorway as it is hard to drive at a constant speed as the turbo is right on the point of the turbo spooling up - that might be something to do with the gearbox I'm using though. Diesel engines are also a lot easier to extract more power out of. To add 25% more power to an L series is very cheap compared to trying to add the same power to a T series. To be honest fitting a T series would be easier than this conversion, but it has been done before and I don't think the T series would be a sensible option in a campervan.

Petrol and diesel currently cost the same around here and I don't think that'll change much in the near future. However in the good old days diesel was a lot cheaper than petrol so economically it made sense. I'm still not ruling out turning it into a bioderv wagon which may decrease fuel costs but we'll see how the conversion goes.

[matthewsemple]

I accept the points about the lazier engine and clearly they are more economical in terms of outright mpg and I think what you are doing is incredibly interesting in terms of being the first person to put an L-Series in the Maestro.

However, when buying a new car it pays to do some sums before buying a diesel. Most people simply don't do enough mileage or keep their cars long enough to make a saving.

Luckily for you, Dan, most people don't look beyond the hype and car salesmen are keen to push diesels because they cost more, so there are plenty of diesel engines around for projects such as yours!

[E_T_V]

Yes, I bought my whole donor car (Rover 620) for £200 with just 61k miles on the clock. As a contrast my daily driver (another rover 620) has over 214k miles on the clock and it is currently doing over 500 miles a week as I'm in the process of changing jobs. It seemed almost a shame to break the donor car for just its engine as it was so much lower miles than mine.

Yes in terms of fuel costs petrols now are a match for the diesels, however the latest cars with their small diesel engines may give diesel the edge again. However petrols are fighting back by also putting small capacity petrol engines in but then turbocharging them to give good performance too so it is swings and roundabouts.

Given the choice of an equal performance petrol or diesel I'd choose the diesel every time as they are so much easier to drive. Don't get me wrong though they aren't quite as fun to drive, but I've got the T16 and the maestro turbo and motorbike for that :D

[countrydude]

Said some stuff!


Yes, while you have a point I think you are missing something out. If you base projections on book mpg then it is always going to be off, sometimes waaay off!

You can return 40 mpg in your t16? That is frankly unlikely and even if you do you could have much more fun driving any diesel at higher speed, better acceleration than you will be using in you t16 to return 40 mpg.

To drive a t16 for fuel economy is missing the point anyway really isn't it!!

[matthewsemple]

Yes, while you have a point I think you are missing something out. If you base projections on book mpg then it is always going to be off, sometimes waaay off!

You can return 40 mpg in your t16? That is frankly unlikely and even if you do you could have much more fun driving any diesel at higher speed, better acceleration than you will be using in you t16 to return 40 mpg.

To drive a t16 for fuel economy is missing the point anyway really isn't it!!
I think you have made some assumptions there!

We have a Rover 220 Coupe Turbo that we didn't buy it because it was economical but we have been surprised by how frugal it is. The car is not used for commuting or town-driving and most of its mileage is clocked up on long journeys using motorways and A-Roads where weight of traffic and speed cameras dictate we keep close to the speed limit and, by default, return good fuel consumption.

[E_T_V]

Yes the T16 for a turbo engine does have very good fuel economy I have to admit.

[monty_dom]

the main advantage of ME driving a diesel over a petrol is that a (good) petrol engine will make sweet music as you go through the gears especially if you have a sports exhaust, this makes driving conservitively very difficult for my lead feet. A diesel (L-series specifically) only makes nice sounds when you really thrash it and even if you do the economy is still in the region of 35mpg rather than the 23 i was getting from 2.0i monty

[guussi]

haha!
i have a perkins maestro.....put a straight thro 50mm stainless exhaust with a plastic performance back box and it sounds like a WRX deep chugging noise but not too loud or harsh...the kids think its a WRX and look bemused when they see its an old maestro lol

The perkins has a very high final drive and i drove up to newcastle u tyne [from Evesham] and 100miles back on a [ private road]3/4 of a tank doing more speed than what you probably should...the alternator died past manchester in the dark and i got towed back further improvement on the mpg pmsl

i was running on veg oil mix for a while until the 4th injector blocked...i had mixed white spirit but...had a heat exchange metal pipe before fuel filter over the engine but thats another story....

its true diesels have expensive turbos and engines costing more outlay pumps bugger up after certain mileage and need servicing quicker....oily smelly hands at the pumps etc and takes longer to recoup costs and ppl dont hang on to them to make it profitable....until you run em on chip fat / cheap chite chocolate lol :idea:
20L veg oil drums used to be £8 back in 2006! lol

[John S]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_efficiency

Certainly diesel engines lose the least energy from fuel consumed. IMO a diesel will always cost less over the same journey than pretty much any petrol engine if driving at low revs and in top gear. It cost me half as much to travel at 70 mph all the way without harsh acceleration to the south coast in my diesel than the petrol maestro too. Have to say though, the o-series turbo is really quite bad on fuel anyway and it generates a lot of heat, evaporating fuel along the way.

[MG Maestro Van]

the o-series turbo is really quite bad on fuel anyway and it generates a lot of heat, evaporating fuel along the way.

The O serise turbo would be a lot beter on fule if it was of a crosflow desing.

[countrydude]

Looking at this another way if you want to do an l series conversion and tune it to around 160 it will cost you much more than a T series conversion which will start at 180 at worst!

Bit of a no brainer really!

[E_T_V]

And the T series conversion is easier! (I speak from experience!)

[countrydude]

Ok, now it is working after a few erm, teething problems shall we say, I can confirm the L series is a great engine conversion/upgragde to do from the perkins. We installed a mechanical pump variety so it has very similar wiring requirements to the prima. Even with just a few tweaks on the pump it will outrun the prima. Mainly on the turbo as it spools up much earlier cutting out all that lag from the T2.

However for the wwwwoooommmpphhhh, nothing is going to get close to the T series!

[guussi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_efficiency

Certainly diesel engines lose the least energy from fuel consumed. IMO a diesel will always cost less over the same journey than pretty much any petrol engine if driving at low revs and in top gear. It cost me half as much to travel at 70 mph all the way without harsh acceleration to the south coast in my diesel than the petrol maestro too. Have to say though, the o-series turbo is really quite bad on fuel anyway and it generates a lot of heat, evaporating fuel along the way.

the industry school of thought now apparently is to run the engine hotter to take advantage of better MPG... presumably metal more expansive less friction...but some of us will think its so the engine's life will be shorter thus boosting more projected sales....as ppl scrap rather than fix head gasket failures....thats if ppl can be bothered to replace numerous cheap electric components designed not to last well till past the 3yr warranty...at £150 p/h to fix

[countrydude]

I don't think it is primarily about heat. The industry is looking to get a cleaner burn of fuel as efficiency is a real selling point these days.

So they have increased the pressure of the fuel injection which in return creates higher temps.

Anyone who talks about diesel car being more expensive to buy is missing the point. The initial purchase price is not the real killer, it is the constant drip drip out of your account in fuel which really tells you wether you can afford the car or not!