Causes for terrible handling...

[SimonR]

Dear All,

I'm having a few issues with my Maestro's handling.

This is the 1.6 VP that I put a 2.0 EFi MG engine into last year but haven't had time to rebush the suspension or replace the shocks yet. It's also still running on the original 1.6 suspension.

Basically it's suffering from very serious torque steer and tram-lining. Accelleration causes the car to sort of twist and turn right whereas easing off the power causes the oposite - particularly bad when changing gear. It also appears impossible to hold it in a straight line on anything but a perfect road surface. The ruts caused by HGVs on motorways seem particularly, erm, interesting!

The only other fault that I think might be worth noting is that when stationary the PAS feels a bit graunchy - it turns left and right OK but there's a sort of grinding and slight resistance through the steering wheel.

I've now got almost everything together to re-bush and replace the shocks back with MG springs but I wanted to see if anyone can throw any light on what's causing this problem so I can make sure I'm going to solve it.

The donor car had done 85k miles and I've got its subframe / arms ARB / hubs / and transmission so not particularly high mileage but it was fairly neglected.

Cheers all.

[E_T_V]

Bottom ball joints or wishbone bushes would be the first place to look. Also check that the front lower shock bolts haven't come loose as I've had this happen to me a few times on my old van.

[steve smith]

it couls also be your pas pump but try changingt the bushes ans shocks and springs ans see what happens

[Russ]

Hi Simon

Check that all the bolts are still in the rear gearbox mount,they can cause weird handling

[SimonR]

Thanks for all the replies, folks - I'll check out the bits you suggest asap. In fact I'm getting rather excited about attacking the parts that I've amassed and building a reconditioned and working front suspension unit.

Hi Simon

Check that all the bolts are still in the rear gearbox mount,they can cause weird handling

Interesting you say that, Russ - I've had the car on ramps and checked both gearbox mounts because I'd noticed that there is quite a lot of engine movement when it's revved. The top of the engine probably tilts about 1 inch towards the front of the car. I couldn't find anything wrong with any of the mounts and assumed that this was normal behaviour (not having owned an O-Series car before) but now you've mentioned it I'm wondering...!

[Jumturbo]

My Monty turbo was off the road for 4 years, so when I recently got it back on the road, I took it down a local by-pass. At 70 it felt very sloppy and seemed to steer from side to side on its own! At 90 it was scary! Rather than mess about I decided to change everything, shocks, all bushes (polyurethane), track rod ends, ball joints, even new hub carriers and bearings ( bought them years ago so might as well use em). When I drove the car to the body shop a couple of weeks ago the car felt incredibly tight, but didn't get up to more than 40. My steering was also jerky, but bled the system and feels much better. The rear H frame bushes, can especially cause rear wheel steer. I can highly recommend the poly bushes, still available. I think Larkspeed are still selling full sets on ebay for about £100. Can also recommend the KYB gas shocks. ( cheap from Camskill Performance......I got a full set inc delivery for about £85.00).

[SimonR]

Hmm - well I took the front wheels off this evening and checked the strut bolts which were all still tight, the gearbox mount was also fine.

I swapped the front wheels to the back and vice versa because the rear wheels (as they were) had much better tread and were generally much better condition than the front ones. I also checked the tyre pressures - the rear ones were about 10psi down.

Unfortunately this has made little or no difference!

Perhaps it is suspension bushes that are causing it then but I'm concerned about the amount that the engine is moving.

It seems a weird question - but can excess engine movement affect torque steer and handling?

[E_T_V]

Its unlikely that engine mounts will be causing the problems you are having. The O series usually breaks the lower gerabox to subframe mount first of all. The others are pretty bullet proof

[henocsr]

make sure you get the tracking done as this causes big problems. if you have changed the steering rack to go PAS have you had it tracked afterwards on a 4 wheel alinement system. I drove my MG Turbo stright after fitting the turbo engine and refub bottom arms and new track rod ends, it was all over the road. 4 wheel alined at a garage near me (only £25, free if they don t have to adjust anything) and it is perfect

[SimonR]

My Monty turbo was off the road for 4 years, so when I recently got it back on the road, I took it down a local by-pass. At 70 it felt very sloppy and seemed to steer from side to side on its own! At 90 it was scary! Rather than mess about I decided to change everything, shocks, all bushes (polyurethane), track rod ends, ball joints, even new hub carriers and bearings ( bought them years ago so might as well use em). When I drove the car to the body shop a couple of weeks ago the car felt incredibly tight, but didn't get up to more than 40. My steering was also jerky, but bled the system and feels much better. The rear H frame bushes, can especially cause rear wheel steer. I can highly recommend the poly bushes, still available. I think Larkspeed are still selling full sets on ebay for about £100. Can also recommend the KYB gas shocks. ( cheap from Camskill Performance......I got a full set inc delivery for about £85.00).

Hey - thanks for that reply which came in while I was typing the message above...

What you describe above seems exactly what I'm getting and interestingly the donor car stood for a couple of years before I got hold of it and then again in my garage recently for a few months. I would estimate that the bushes are the original ones for the car so they're 15 years old at least.

I've got a full set of Polybushes to go on, as well as some brand new shocks and after several people have mentioned ball joints I'll get hold of some of them too.

Let's hope that solves it!

[Jumturbo]

Yes, I reckon doing all the above will solve your problems, but take note of what henocsr has said about the tracking! When I first drove mine down the road with all the replacement bits the tracking was a mile out and felt like a bag of s**t to drive. Both front wheels were toeing in. I haven't taken mine to be tracked properly but will when I get it back. However, I did track it myself for now! You can get pretty good results by 'sighting' the rear wheels to the fronts. Adjust the arms till they match the rears with steering wheel straight. I just crouched down at the rear of the car and used 'one' eye to sight the rear wheels to the fronts and kept adjusting till the rears matched the front. Not ideal ( and no doubt not as accurate as a laser!lol), but I reckon it is virtually spot on as car drove perfectly on the way to body shop.
Just one thing to note, the bottom ball joints can be a pig to remove if they are the original riveted items. To make it easier, grind the rivet heads off on one side, then drill through with a slightly smaller drill bit ( 5mm I think). Don't drill all the way through as you then need to tap the 'orrible remains' out with a suitable drift ( another old drill bit but smaller). Buy new drill bit too and lubricate with oil as you drill. The wishbone bushes ar also pigs to remove. You'd be as well reading my recent thread,'what a terrible day'.
PS. my bushes were the originals too and were nearly 20 years old! and turbos were notorious for knocking out bushes pretty quickly!

[SimonR]

I took the car into the local tyre place this morning and asked them to double-check the wheel alignment and (perhaps unsurprisingly) one wheel was quite a long way out. This is particularly annoying because it's already been looked at by one garage already.

It's much better now although there is still movement and slight torque steer caused by the bushes I expect.

I've nearly amassed all the parts I need to rebuild the front suspension now - just a pair of front ball joints and some stainless bolts to hold them in place and I'll be there.

Oh, and I'm also going to see if I can get my anti-roll bar end bushes reconditioned with polyurethane. Shouldn't be too difficult to achieve I'd have thought as a friend is re-casting the whole bush set for his MG Magnette.

[E_T_V]

Someone does the anti-roll bar ends in stainless if you get stuck. I've currently got a bloke on the case making me a pair for my van. If they work out then I'll get a price from him for more.

[E_T_V]

These are the ones I've just had made for me for my van and turbo.

Not particularly cheap, but then they are custom made from scratch in polyurethane and stainless.

Just waiting for them to be delivered to me now for testing.

[steve smith]

those bushes do look good i might be up for a set some time

[G Force]

Hi E_T_V, It is hard to tell from the pictures but what means is there to stop the inner bush coming debonded and creeping out of the outer case. Are the ends of the outer case rolled over a small amount?

[E_T_V]

Well spotted that man! The bushes are a tight press fit (inserted using a vice), inside the bushes so they shouldn't wander out. However I'm waiting to try the prototypes to make sure the theory works before selling them to anyone. I've considered glueing them in as well but if all else fails I'm going to have a large "washer" tacked to the end of the tube to prevent them coming out in service.

[G Force]

The bushes are a tight press fit (inserted using a vice), inside the bushes so they shouldn't wander out. However I'm waiting to try the prototypes to make sure the theory works before selling them to anyone. I've considered glueing them in as well but if all else fails I'm going to have a large "washer" tacked to the end of the tube to prevent them coming out in service.

I did not realise that you were part of the design team so to speak E_T_V so fair play to you for doing something positive to solve the supply problem of these NLA parts:thumbup:

It will be interesting to see how the bushes perform in your tests, (as they stand without testing they would undoubtably solve the mot test problem but I know that you will be aiming more for performance and durability).;)

There is a certain amount of push and pull through the horizantal centre line of the bush when the suspension moves up and down which might cause the bush to creep but you will only find out in long term testing.

If and only if it happens as its just theory at this stage it might be difficult to tack a washer on both ends of the outer case without causing damage to the bush material. If rolling over the end is not an option, Maybe a H section bush could be pressed in or maybe a cheap alternative like part drilling 4 holes along the horizantal centre line and blind pop riveting the holes might work.

Good work & good luck with the testing:thumbup:

[oseerees]

VW Golf ones - lot more advantages: the 2 most important are that they are 1) readily available, 2) VERY cheap (not necessarily in that order).

Re the bush working loose (can't happen on the VW one as it's lipped each end).

Before getting VW links I'd thought about rebushing and a possible solution to the question of bush moving out of housing is:
slide on and tack weld large washer on roll bar, then fit link, and tap a thread on outer end of roll bar, another large washer and secure with fitting a nyloc nut?

Then link can still be removed, and importantly if poly bush wears it can still be removed and new one fitted. :D

Friend thinks this would be too taught (not enough movement) and could cause link to break :eek:- he agrees with my solution but suggests a hefty rubber washer either side of link as well to allow movement.

But as I said too much in favour of the cheap alternative. Need to get some miles down to see if I am right.

[E_T_V]

<snip>

If and only if it happens as its just theory at this stage it might be difficult to tack a washer on both ends of the outer case without causing damage to the bush material. If rolling over the end is not an option, Maybe a H section bush could be pressed in or maybe a cheap alternative like part drilling 4 holes along the horizantal centre line and blind pop riveting the holes might work.

Good work & good luck with the testing:thumbup:

You only really need to retain the bush from moving outward as the bigger section on the inside of the anti-roll bar will stop it moving too far inward. So you could tack a washer on the outside and then press the bush in to avoid heat damaging it.

However what the bloke is doing at the moment is deforming the ends in a few locations to trap the bush in place much like the original is.

A H shaped bush is possible as he machines the bushes to size but difficult to insert without damage so we'll leave that to a last resort I think for now.

Another approach would be to drill and tap the sleeve and screw a small grub screw into it to locate it but that is adding another level of complexity which I'm not sure we need yet.

Necessity is the mother of invention and so as I was rebuilding my van suspension I decided that the old ones wouldn't hack it any longer.

As an aside which way up does the anti-roll bar go? I have a feeling my ledbury van's was on upside down!

[E_T_V]

VW Golf ones - lot more advantages: the 2 most important are that they are 1) readily available, 2) VERY cheap (not necessarily in that order).

Re the bush working loose (can't happen on the VW one as it's lipped each end).

Before getting VW links I'd thought about rebushing and a possible solution to the question of bush moving out of housing is:
slide on and tack weld large washer on roll bar, then fit link, and tap a thread on outer end of roll bar, another large washer and secure with fitting a nyloc nut?

Then link can still be removed, and importantly if poly bush wears it can still be removed and new one fitted. :D

Friend thinks this would be too taught (not enough movement) and could cause link to break :eek:- he agrees with my solution but suggests a hefty rubber washer either side of link as well to allow movement.

But as I said too much in favour of the cheap alternative. Need to get some miles down to see if I am right.

I've considered the VW links and even got one to test, however there were more problems in adapting them to fit than with engineering a new one.

The VW ones are much shorter than the maestro ones, and as the bar passes thought he link at an angle then the VW ones will give a lot less anti-roll control something which concerns me for my van and turbo which are both to be fairly high powered.

The VW ones are bigger than the anti-roll bar end. People have suggested fitting a sleeve to the end of the anti-roll bar. Whilst this initially seems like a good option, one which I was going to do myself. However the corrosion of the anti-roll bar in service means that the surface is usually quite rough and so getting a good fit will be difficult if not impossible without remachining the end of the bar which isn't really practical due to its shape. If the sleeve comes loose then it is an MOT failure item as well so I canned that idea in favour of some completely new ones. You also need to secure the sleeve somehow onto the bar end to prevent it falling off/creeping out which again isn't straightfoward to do.

If you can get them to work reliably then great go for it!

However I couldn't wait for that to happen (and people have been talking about it and other replacements for literally years now), so I got some made for me, and I'm offering them to other owners who are after a straight and simple swap.

[G Force]

As an aside which way up does the anti-roll bar go? I have a feeling my ledbury van's was on upside down!

Hi E_T_V I think the easiest way to answer that one is this.

If you fit the anti-roll bar to the vehicle with both wheels on the ground (or on car ramps) the anti-roll bar will only fit one way up. This is the best way to fit it anyway as it just fits like a glove.

Fitting it with the the vehicle on axle stands is just one big waste of energy pushing and prying and swearing for nowt:banghead::D

Cheers:)

[E_T_V]

I wish I'd read this earlier. You can guess what I've been doing today (fitting the anti-roll bar mounts to my turbo).

In the end a jack under each bottom ball joint and it all went smoothly as you suggest.

Good news is that the anti-roll bar links fit fine. The mods to prevent the bush creeping out should do the business too. Pics to follow in the for sale thread if I can get the technology to work!

[SimonR]

Hi Simon

Check that all the bolts are still in the rear gearbox mount,they can cause weird handling

Sorry to bring up a very old thread - but there's news!

After whiling away the long summer days I've decided that now there's no light and it's cold and wet outside it's time to start taking the Maestro apart... :banghead:

I've spent the past couple of weeks choosing the best suspension parts I have in my stash, preping them and spraying them, ready for re-fitment. Today's job was to remove the subframe and other remaining front suspension components from the car.

So - going back to that gearbox -> subframe bush. When I took it off the car it fell apart! Turns out that it looked OK when under compression but as soon as the subframe dropped the rubber split, allowing the two metal plates to come adrift.

I'll stick a wanted message in the relevant board but it's good to (hopefully) know what was causing the handling issues.

I'll also stick a few photos of my progress with the re-spraying in case anyone wants to see how it's progressing!

Cheers all for your advice - looks like everyone pretty much know the fault, even though I couldn't see it...

[E_T_V]

At a pinch try contact adhesive between the rubber and the plates and then clamp it up overnight.

Worked on my turbo one!

[SimonR]

At a pinch try contact adhesive between the rubber and the plates and then clamp it up overnight.

Worked on my turbo one!

Actually Dan - you may well be onto something there! I've just been able to remove two very rusted-on bolts holding half of the mount to the subframe and after a bit of examination it appears that the rubber hasn't failed as such - it's just come away from the metal plate at one end.

I think after a bit of a clean-up and de-grease it could glue very well. Out of interest what adhesive did you use? - I guess the stronger the better given the trouble I'll have if it breaks again! Something like Evostick Impact Adhesive (http://www.bostik.co.uk/diy/product/evo-stik/impact) is perhaps favourite....?

Cheers

SR.

[E_T_V]

Yes I think that is what I used the second time around. The first time I used cyanoacrylate (superglue), which didn't work very well.

[matthewsemple]

I would get very nervous if I had to modify something that wasn't really the right part or had to use superglue to hold them together.

I am going to be using the ones from MAPS on my MG Maestro Turbo. They are more expensive, however, they are cheaper than buying the other ones and then having to get the ones from MAPS when the cheap ones fail - which is what I fear would happen, knowing my luck.

http://www.mgcars.org.uk/mgm/images/AntiRollBarLinks.JPG

You can order these from the MG 'M' Group or directly from MAPS for £45 each. Rimmer Bros are also stocking them as a replacement for the original Rover part so that is a pretty good endorsement.

[E_T_V]

Wrong part Matthew, We are talking about the engine mount not the anti-roll bar mounts.

[matthewsemple]

Ah, I see! The thread must have switched parts from earlier.

You guys take care with that glue though! Don't want you getting your fingers stuck to the car. ;)